Jim Leonard

Interview of Jim Leonard for the Elizabeth V. and George F. Gardner Digital Library. Leonard discusses growing up in Enola, PA and his family's connection to the Enola Rail Yard. He further goes into details on his own work at the Rail Yard over the course of thirty years.

The following is a machine generated transcript using the Google Recorder App:

My name is Blair Williams. I'm here today, February, 24th 2023. I'm at the Cumberland County Historical Society talking with Jim Leonard. So, thank you Jim for for coming in. Well, thanks. I'm glad to be part of this program and I give you a best interview as possible, All right?

The first question I was like to ask is how did you or your family? First come to Cumberland County When I was just a baby, my mom and dad moved to a. No, I was six months old and the reason they moved there was because my dad had a job on the railroad.

And this was in 1943, like I say, I was only like six months old. So it was in the middle winner. I was born in September and we lived in a two or three rental homes for several years and then in nearly fifties, my dad built a house and we were established to stay there.

When you say your father worked for the railroad, actually, I should first ask, what were your parents' names? My dad was James Leonard, same as mine, but different middle name. My mom was Ivelin Leonard and they came from Perry County. They both lived on farms in Perry, County grew up in farmer families.

My dad had done a farm and came down to Enola after he got out of the service, my grandpa Leonard, he was James Leonard also, he worked under Railroad for 30, some years in the steel shop and he was a welder and what they called a cutter. They used the welding torch to cut scrap cars and then they sent the scrapbook for the steel mill to be rebuilt for whatever they might need.

Most likely steel ties or not ties, but rails. So when you say here, grandfather and then your father worked for the railroad was there particular rail company. They worked for it was for the Pennsylvania railroad at the time at this. And in the early part of 1900s will not graph starting working and think was probably the 20s and he worked on the farm at the same time.

So he needed the railroad to supplement his farmwork as things were getting. I should say, as he was getting over, he couldn't really continue to farm the way that it needed to be formed to make money. So he needed to affirm job. He worked under railroad and then my pop, he worked on a railroad too.

Were other than there when the Pennsylvania Railroad changed its name or was that? Yes, long after no. My dad was still working on the railroad and when Penn Central was was formed from the New York Central and the Pennsylvania Railroad and this was around 1967 or so and then of course 10 central went back up to 1976 Conrail is formed and Amtrak was formed.

They separated the passenger from the freight side, whereas back in the Pensie days that was all one. Established company. Did your grandfather and father? Do they work? He said your grandfather worked. He sort of as a welder, was it? So specialized that they would only work on a specific type of engine, or what were they working on grandpa stored?

He worked in a car shop and that's what they that's where he worked. Most of his adult life. And the car shop was over on the eastern side of the annually yard. My dad, he was a crew car. He actually went out in town and called men to work when they didn't have telephones.

This was back in the day, when, you know, couple phones weren't in everybody's home. Sorry. And, and his early days, he told me, he used to take a bicycle and right around town to get the guys out of bed and never called for work. But he was a crew caller.

He drove a jitney most of his hourly on the railroad and a jitney was a truck that had three sets of seats. And so that they got all the crews out to the east and in the west end to pick up their train or bring their crew in from bringing a train in the yard.

Now, how long did that particular job last? Well, pop worked on that job from 1943. Up to 1970 72 whenever he had 30 years in and it was I think right at right about the time. They big flood hit Agnes in 70s and right after that they were given severance pays out to cut guys off the railroad, they didn't need a guys of his age and he was close to retirement but yet not there.

So they offered him a severance pay and he took that severance bank quit after he had 30 years in. Whereas I hired in 65 and I worked from 1965 over the way up to 2003. Okay, so you would have been hired on when you were 22 I heard on about.

Yeah. Yeah. The early 20s I was in my early 20s and 1965 after I served three years in the army. When I, when I got out of high school, that's what I did. And from 65 on all the way up through 2003, I was a court crime clerk on the railroad and clerical duties and entailed, almost anything indoors and some outdoors.

Well, going back a little bit. Okay. See you grew up in a Noah, when you're fat? Father, moved to there. When you were six months old. What was that experience? Like growing up in Enola, sort of, and especially being from a family that had multiple generations working at the row yard.

Well, grown up and he knows sort of an easy easygo life back then. It wasn't like today, at all you couldn't, you didn't have to lock your doors back then. So when I had five brothers and sisters so we had the run of a town and we could go do anything.

We wanted up to dark out and we had to be home when we were in school of course, during the school year, but growing up, I just did what any other kid didn't time, you know, and the winter time, we would go sledding when it was snowing and stuff and we most then outdoors life.

I played ball and football and stuff and the fields and it was just a totally different life, whereas everybody's focused on their phones today, we were focused on just going out and having a good time with our friends and in high school, it was more or less. Still, that type of an atmosphere.

For me, did a lot of people that you were sort of, you know, friends with were a lot of their families, also connected to the Railroad. Absolutely. A lot of my classmates, I'd parents that were on the railroad and they worked various jobs of course. And what's really strange is, when I got on the railroad, I met most of their parents for the first time, really, a lot of them were trained training, conductors, engineers, or firemen on the railroad.

And my first 15 years in the real road, I called cruise to work in the office, I get my orders from the yardmaster and then get the crews been needed to go to a certain destination. And these guys have come to our little office and sign up the window get their time card.

Get their orders for the train that's ever gonna get. And I got to know a lot of these guys and a whole different sense. You know, I got to know them, probably new more about the the pops and came to work then the kids did with their own moms and dads.

It was just a different point of view and I along with that, I lot of kids that I grew up with were now working on the railroad too and they were coming to sign up when it and this is where the crews would sign up to go to work and whole trains you know, here.

And there Now is that you said you were tired in 2003 I did, but is that something that still happens today? Where you have certain crews coming into the office and signing off to? I don't think they do that anymore. They might, but the back in my day, all crews, there were four, five and six guys on a crew.

Whereas today, there might be only the one, or two and engineer, and a conductor and everything is electronic today. And these guys today garner phone call to come to work or they saw it on online. They might have got a what he called tax and they made a gun.

Some kind of communication that way to get their call voice. It's a real broad subject and I could really expand them. And so what I'm just, I'm just wondering, I mean sort of that you mentioned that your father was a group caller and I mean, he had to go out on a bicycle and literally, you know, knock on doors or yeah.

He was a young boy then too. Yeah, versus I yesterday were. Yeah, is much more, you know, distributed in the sense that getting a text or, you know, when I look back at what we were just talking about, you know, as things were getting better and better. Communication wise, my office got consolidated with an office in New Jersey and when they consolidated that they took my job away and sent it to New Jersey.

So I had to go out and find another job which is, which is what I had to do, either making a bump is what it was called. Exercising my seniority over you, if you were younger than me on the roster or I could fill out a bid sheet and bit a job that might be advertised for a position that I might be qualified to work on.

So 15 years in the crew office. After that, I had worked and maybe five or six other jobs throughout my career and different locations of the yard or in Harrisburg yard as I was, you know, gaining seniority and growing older. Well you mentioned that you started 65. The bankruptcy was in 70.

Yeah, comrades. Formed in 76. So that bankruptcy really is over a period of time. They were just going downhill and it didn't work well and then Agnes was 72. So, I'm just what was it? Like sort of working in that must be on certain period. Well in 1972, when that that's storm, hit It shut down a lot of the railroad because the whole Columbia branch was underwater because it was so close to the Susquehanna River.

And of course, the rivers and the creeks were all up so high and people were having so much water damage in their homes. They weren't even able to make it to work. And it were, there weren't very few trains moving. At the time, they could only go certain directions that they wanted if they needed to go south and east and they were exposed to over the Columbia branch normally, they would go a different route now and then weren't as many trains running.

So the water receded first tracks were rebuilt to make, you know, train safe to run over different lines. I remember that so many people were off work. I lived right there in town and I walked to work a lot of times and when I did when I couldn't drive, so I remember there was only one or two of us in the office called Crews around the clock.

I got stuck there 24 hours more than one time calling cruise because I couldn't go to work. People couldn't come into work and I had to stay and work their jobs. It was, it was a crazy time and I had trouble at home. I needed to be home because my backyard was so soaked to have the water was running.

Through my house from one side to the and I couldn't take care of my home. I couldn't leave the job. It was frustrating. So instead it was 1980. So it would have been four years after Conrail was formed. They consolidated further. Well, 1976 when they consolidated the railroad, all the, all the different trains, like Pennsy, the Penn Central, New York Central, all that stuff was consolidated into Conrail and that lasted all the way up to 1998 whenever the chassis and the Norfolk Southern bought out different sections of Conroy's lines.

The chassis was south of us of course. And they took a big section out of that consolidated, railroad situation. And then also Norfolk Southern they actually came from Atlanta up and took over Norway yard and the Eastern part of what was formerly Conrail. So the two railroads took over and that's what that happened there.

What we mentioned now that your court position was shifted to New Jersey and New Jersey office. So was that something that was relatively common? I mentioned also that during your your father's time and possibly your time there are five people on a career versus the one or two that are now it is.

So I'm just wondering the that consolidation, I guess not only in railroads, but it also seems like with technology positions were consolidated as well. The computer age was really going rampant at the time, okay? That a lot of our stuff was starting to be, not run by computer, but controlled by computer from different locations.

So, we was the location that controlled our area. And when we started using computers on our jobs, we were doing very simple things. We were, we were building databases for different things for a several location down in Philadelphia. We, you know, we had things to to go by, to do our jobs, a lot of a lot of positions that were under control of a computer where even done by handheld computer that when you were out doing your job, you would use a handheld computer to put the data in so that they could keep track of cars and trains.

And people and it was there was a whole crazy time. It was hard for me to understand it at the time and I couldn't understand why would you take my job for me? Why wouldn't you bring these guys up to my location but they did further, they went further, they building it in sections.

You know, went to took while along, with rather for jarred, which had their own crew dispatchers office, and a lot of those positions in sent them all to Philadelphia or New Jersey. In that general area. Then they went to Indianapolis and consolidated. More had things. Just a job is dissipated, as she was crazy.

What? I, so, what were some of those jobs that were around? I mentioned like firemen and our. So what were some of this jobs and what do they entail? While you would think of environment as somebody of a shovel coal and a cold. Okay, apparatus owner on a steam engine.

Well, they kept them, they kept their position name fireman. But as the diesel age came about and the electronic age came up came about, they had electric trains and they had diesels. So the firemen would be training to be an engineer. The engineer would run the train and I mean run the engine.

The fireman was the guy that worked with him and used to shovel coal but now he's training to be. It says, next position up conductors they would be in charge of the train conscious from the engine back to caboose. While the cabooses were still part of a train they eventually got rid of them and started using end of train device and EOT electronically controlled the back of the train from the engine.

But crews because they did that they didn't need them. Have more men on the crew because things were becoming an electronic and they didn't have to deal with all these men on a train. They had a conductor and two men break it. One of them was a flagman because one of these guys had to be qualified to, give signals at one end of the train to the conductor at the other end of the train.

My neighbor said, cars off or set in the whole consist of the train off and picking up a new consist of empties. Loads I should say, is what they take out bringing the empties. And as they as the computer age came about, they needed less and less meant to do that.

Manual work. Electronics was the way to go. What about in the yard itself? Or you mentioned at the beginning that your grandfather was a welder? Were those positions also being consolidated or? Because they were more physical. The I don't keeping them there. Well, I'm not exactly sure about what all happened in a car shop.

I wasn't really in touch with that. I just know that it existed, they repaired cars in there. They would a big thing with with cars with were the wheels. They would get flat spots on them, so they'd have the train change out wheels. If until the elect that settled wheels, got run through a wheelchair and ground back round.

Again, they get these gripping flat spots on them from dragging, the train whenever they hit the brakes, okay? That's what we call the flat spot. If you hear a train going down down to track it. We gonna, you know, like clicking noise. Yeah there's probably a flat spot somewhere and if it's pretty big one to do it, but that part of the job, I never worked there and I never saw exactly what they did.

But as things went they would take that card repair, work to another location because they didn't have as much damage on cars on the newer ones. Like they did the older ones the older ones wouldn't last as long as the newer ones so I guess that's probably what happened.

They were upgrading the cars with better consist of iron I guess in the wheels and everything like that and they wouldn't need to have as much repair work done. So they would, you know, shut that get rid of them. They would have in the car shop, they had car inspectors.

And that was the biggest job when it came to cars. Car inspectors would inspect the trains before they would take them out of their yard. They would make sure that the air hoses for the air. Brakes were all in good shape because they can rip and tear. And pool is as you know, as they work a job, the more they do it.

The more they wear out their airhoses and they rubber. Yeah. So the car inspector would make sure that the car was the train was ready to go, he would give his report and if there was any damage on them on any of those cars, they pull them out and get them fixed up for another train to go to that location.

Try to think. I'll let you ask. Well no I what while you're talking about some of these different positions and you mentioned particular that the fireman is next shot Bob was the engineer. I was wondering how did a lot of people come to be in the positions that they found themselves at yourself who is in clerk or someone who was an engineer or a car shop as many retired and left the position, of course that left the vacancy.

Now if they didn't have enough, a man to fill all these vacancies because all these guys, that heard in 1940s retired, David, they need men to replace them. So they would hire them as fireman trainees and engineer. Trainees conductor, trainees and brake machines. The brakeman to become a conductor would have to be there for certain period of time in till he was oral enough to hold a position as a conductor.

They were they had different rosters for different positions. The trainings roster would have be for the conductors the flagman, and the brakeman, The engineers roster would be for the firemen and the engine man, and as engine and retired, as the fireman would get qualified to take his place and work that position In the yard itself, they had various types of crews to work on trains and the annually yard.

I'm going to give you an explanation. As to what happens, how they, how they build a train in the yard, Each each the annolar yard had a east end and a west end in the middle. They had a hump on each side and what that would mean is cars would come in.

Are receiving yard from another location and then through a lot of different actions taken a train would be broken up in made into new trains. Now he would go over the home and these these tracks down here in the field would be assigned to different locations. Going out of enoly yard, okay?

Notice west. Same way the other direction. Train would come in a car cutter. Would walk alongside of that tray at that draft of cars and he would have a paper with him with a every car in that consist and he would know how to cut them by the way.

They're supposed to go as they go over. The hump conductor would be in a conductor shiny given his orders out to these guys to do their job and they would have retarders out here in different locations. That would be assigned to put on breaks as credit cards. Go over the home and also the breaks would be put on them according to the weight of the car as it's going over the hump so that it wouldn't crash into a consistent the other end and he would have switches to throw there were heirs that were air, controlled switches out there beyond the retired, beyond the hump going into the yard and this retarder, operator would be throwing switches to send them to the proper locations and also putting air on the choruses are going down over the house.

So that's the basic operation of what happened and you know we are it was a big classification yard to re-establish, new trains from trans coming in to go to different locations. And there were so many different kind of crews to do that. They had engines down here in the field and they had engineers at the other end of the yard, and they would be putting these trains together by pushing back and forth and running them up and down different tracks until they had 80 to 100 cars, ready to make a new train to go somewhere.

The crew that worked on in this field, there might have been seven or eight of them to work at different locations in the art and they would be putting it down here. Making sure that. Oh gosh, it was very complicated. Yeah. So they had they didn't have an engine man or that they would have a conductor and could charge of a short crew which would be two other guys and they would be getting trained study from one end of the yard and they would have the same kind of crews at the other end of the yard helping to prepare the other end of the train.

So there were a lot of angermen in the younger yard. I'm going to give you a good idea that we're probably thousands when I hired at the whole yard. Yeah. Because it was big that were like, 40-some tracks and the east yard. There were like 40 in the west yard and you talk about trains.

I mean, the place was just loaded with cars when I was young. And as time went on things changed, there were less trains that because they were longer now than they used to be. And they didn't need to do a lot of cash classification. And, you know, a yard after the 1980s because they were building bigger and better yards that other locations that were more, modern to handle that work and more efficient to handle that work.

Conway was one of those places and there were several around the United States that were just becoming so modernized as eliminated. The work that was done in certain parts of Enola yard right now, yard has a Western classification yard. It's not as the biggest it used to be and they do all the work going east and west at one location now.

But they still have a hump operation. Lot of men to do that work. Of course, now there are less than they used to be hundreds. And now, maybe And in all a diesel shot, there's another location where I worked and that's where they worked on diesels. Whenever they needed their maintenance time, That's just like an automobile.

They have these different inspection periods to make sure that these engines are have all the air running properly that have air compressors in them to put air in a train to put on the brakes from the could be controlled from the engine. They have so many different parts of that engine needed to be maintained and over years time, they had different inspection periods to make sure that all that work was done and that's what they do.

And you know, we're shot and they know what they so shot and there are I load of mechanics in there. They have labors, they have mechanics. They have guys that work on air, they have electricians. All that type of maintenance work and that are controlled by this type of man and women now today.

Well, so you said, when you're clear position, was moved to New Jersey or Philadelphia, you ended up working. Another five and five roles you. One of them was in that diesel shop. One of them was in the diesel shop where I would get my orders from the movement, you're in Harrisburg to get engines, ready for a train, they control what, what was going in out of the yard from Harrisburg movement bureau?

I get my orders to get three engines or however many engines. They needed to get ready for a trade. Now, I would call when I would look at what engines I had available for trans, I would be taught how to do this, you know, before I have control of this position.

But I would have to tell the crew out back that had that were in charge of putting engine conscious together to haul a train. We tell them what I need, how many engines? I need to haul a train and they would be because of the amount of weight that they were going to pull.

How many horsepower they would need and engines to pull a train. So I had that position for a number of years, giving orders to men to target engines. Ready, I worked another few years in a storehouse which is right next to the engine house and that's where they had all the parts that were used to do the maintenance on engines.

So we would have a large storage area where we had all the parts located and we would have to bring those parts out from the storehouse to the diesel shop and then of course, another guy would take that stuff and take it out and put it out near the engine.

That was going to be working on for whatever needed to be done there. After that, I worked. I worked for five years and in the the main superintendents, this guy should say and that's superintendent, but it was the main office in Harrisburg, where we worked on time parts of the crews.

We would receive all the time cards from the men who were working on these different crews, this particular place and I would have to look at the time cards and verify everything, they claimed on a time card and I would have all kinds of documentation that was sent to our office to use to verify what they're claiming on a time card that they are entitled.

They think they're entitled to other than their regular days work. There were just a lot of different types of reasons for getting different kind of money and I had to know what those reasons were and I had to verify whether that was a good climber, not on a time part.

Then those times would be fed to the guys that were going to type the information in and that's stuff would be, of course, going to computer and then that paycheck would come to the guy after two weeks after I worked on that position and was consolidated and shipped out to another location again.

I eventually my last five years I got made up on Harrisburg yard and on that position, believe it or not my last five years, I was inspecting tractor, trailers, coming in and out of the yard that were bringing in containers to be put on trains to behold. I should say put on flat cars that were part of train consists.

So on our training had to be done for me to be on those jobs. I can give you an instance. One time I was trying to get a clerical job and for this particular position, they wanted you to pick type. 50 words a minute. I had already passed 35 when I hired on the railroad to be a clerk.

But now some of these positions were they were demanding that you type faster because you had to do a lot of detailed more preposition type precision type work to make sure it was done correctly and fast. So I had to go to Philadelphia to think of typing tests so I went to Philadelphia.

I my previous time I was using a typewriter. Of course I got my day. Now on a computer this is totally different. I've been 50 words a minute, maybe you just touch key and boom mistake. So I I could type 45 to 48 words, a minute with five or six mistakes, but I never got to 50.

I just made two little too many little errors that. It was too difficult for me to type on this computer keys and it was tough to type, 50 words a minute period. And for me so I tried my best but I didn't get a position because I didn't qualify and that was one of the things that you had if you didn't qualify on a position you tried to make a on or you bid on they would tell you you're going to have to look somewhere else.

Here, you got 10 days to make a bump and that's where it was back. Then you got a sheet of paper and said, you're you've been bumper to displaced. You have to make up on somewhere else. So you look for another job somewhere else and hope you could qualify within a period.

And you know, the one working there, it wasn't. It was that's the way other jobs were too training and engineering conductors. I had to bid on jobs whenever they were up for bid in order to make a better paycheck.

You mentioned in terms of sort of related to that as well. And also, when you're talking about inspecting time cards was a lot of this because of the unions. Yes involved with the real companies. Every almost every classification of employee on the railroad was under control of the union.

I was established as a clerk and our union was BRAC brotherhood of railway airline and steamship clerks. We had our own roster that was under that established union and I hiring they put me in a position. When I first hired I was probably around 120 on Park Roster as I got older.

People were leaving, of course, like what the roster and that's the way. All these other unions were with their established different jobs. The engine had a union farming with the same union, they were brotherhood of right away, electric Brotherhood of Anjuman environment. BR8 BR-A, forget BLE Brotherhood of local motive, engineers, conductors and training.

They had their own union over in the diesel shop every one of these different positions, they all had their own union and I would say they're probably the same for the Carmen in the parshop everywhere. That's the way. The railroad was, they were controlled by the union. And the reason they had unions were to have better working conditions and also to give a man, a fair wage, I should say a man.

And a woman, Women started coming on the river and more back in the 70s, and they actually became qualified on all these positions that I talked about mechanics, all of it. So, when you, when you talk about, you had 10 days to bump or to bid was that, that was within sort of your union.

You like, you couldn't be only all the unions have been established period of time to make an to exercise this seniority, but it's so what I'm asking is but not that you would have qualified but you can, you know, bump like a conductor. No. You had to stay within your union.

Okay. Yeah, and sort of yeah theoretically that's what you would have been most qualified to do as well. There were other, there were other situations that were you could get a better job if you would have to be happened to be selected by the company to be placed on a position, okay?

Now you would still be under the control of your union but you would be also under the control of management. I had a couple management positions when I worked as a clerk and 1972. During that flood period, the guy that was in charge of our office. There were about 16 or 18 of us called that were in our crew office and we had achieved true dispatcher over all of us.

And this particular man cause some problems between us and management and they took him off the job. You know, he wasn't cooperating and it was because he was losing touch with reality. He wasn't he wasn't keeping our, our jobs under control and he wasn't keeping control between us and the management office that the other end of the building.

So when that happened, I happened to be training on some of the other jobs and I was qualified on every job in our office that was common cruise east west and south and north. And I was also working another position that was not an appointed position, but it was another position in our office that wasn't called on cruise.

It was just doing other menia work. So, the boss asked me if I be interested in training on that position and I also I I also at the time had already been doing some of this guy's work. So I knew what he had to do. So they got they gave me a year to qualify on that position and learned to be the chief crew dispatcher and that office.

And in 72 after my year I qualified and they gave me the permanent position. I was on that position position until the railroads consolidated. Our office with another position. They gave me an opportunity to go with the job but I didn't want to go so they gave me a bum slip and told me the exercise, my seniority, like they did with everybody else in the office that lost the position So that that's I think that happened in all over the railroad.

There were a lot of appointed jobs in different locations for different reasons. They worked directly with management.

So I think we've actually covered a lot of questions I had here sort of as we've taught, it's very broad. Yeah, it's so broad. It's tough to, it's tough to really understand at all. Yeah, I especially in this type of conversation, but I'm wondering I mean maybe this is a question of like when you're younger.

But I mean even now our were there any jobs that really stood out to you, sort of while you were all your younger or when you were working at the no yard, what's your question? Were there any jobs in particular? That's stood out to you that? I like sure I love them and in the true specials office.

Okay. I know my job really well, I got along with everybody in my office and that's part of the job, you know, being being in charge of people who like to work for you and these guys were mostly my age at the time and most of the time people on that particular position were usually 20, 30 years older than you because they've been around for a long time.

And of course, that was just one of those situations, but I really like Paul Cruz. I didn't like working over at the trail van terminal where we inspected tractor trailers because we were outside all the time around the clock wherever time of the day, I was called for it was always outside work and the weather was brutal.

Maybe it's extremely hot in the tarmac over there because it was a lot of concrete for parking tractor trailers everywhere and it was very hot in the summer and it was windy underneath the bridge where I worked all the time it was just like a gale wind and and the winter time it was brutally cold, doing a handheld computer with your fingers you couldn't put clubs on so I hated that job but yeah all crews was the best I had

So, I mean you obviously you moved to Illinois as a six months old, your family was involved with the era. Well, how has we talked about it a little bit, but I guess we've talked about the really artists change. But what were the resulting impacts or influences on sort of the surrounding community of en as sort of those shifts at the railroad were happening.

Well, I'll give you an idea and the beginning 1905 when you know, a yard was opened. They were all already building a townforino. They're all started around 1903. So, our time was built for railroaders Now over time, of course, less and less men working on a railroad. There were less than less railroaders any Nova, but being in railroad town was it was a pretty decent the everybody.

Understood that some member of their family was going to go to work sometime of the day down in the yard. So we don't everybody respected that in our town. As a railroad town, we knew my name, we know my day was going to go to work on the railroad and we know it's going to be a dangerous job and it wasn't dangerous job.

I'll give you an instance or go look at but but dad got a broken leg on the railroad working outside in the winter time. You know, hauling a crew up to work, got out of the truck, went in the yard. Meshed, his office came back out and slipped and found broke his leg.

And that's just a simple thing. But there were very, very many other very difficult instances to happen on the railroad because it was such a dangerous job, but then an in town, trying to keep with your question. Yeah, it was, it was like a steel town down in Steelton.

You know, those guys were all affiliated with the steel mill in some way, shape or form and they were a roughneck crew and the railroad was too early on. They were roughneck bunch of guys but it settled down over the years. It just you know, because as things just changed over the years, it it wasn't the same but I think I tried to answer the best.

I could not, I was just wondering, I mean, as less than less, people are affiliated with the railroad, you know, I'm sure that it has some impact on the town in the community as well. If you know, not everyone is working there. And now they're in a lot of different other industries high market.

It's closed by a lot of folks work for that insurance companies here. All over here, in high market, and many of the other medical industries, there are four or five hospitals. Now, look at how many people might be working in hospital. So it's just, I tell that's how things have changed over the years.

There's just more industries and for people and that's where our people are from today in homes. And you know, in Illinois, wonder some of the questions I had here was sort of job where they did stories or traditions, but but I think that's interesting too. That you mentioned that, you know, initially I mean, those would have been not only job stories and traditions, but communities stories and traditions.

And probably I mean in some ways better or worse, I mean that that's now no longer the case but I I'm wondering were whether any traditions or stories that were shared down the years. I'm sure probably working with at or I'm just became one of those eventually sure. Oh everybody had a story about what happened to them when it came to that I missed thing but there were other instances over the years where you'd hear a lot of crazy strange stories from the men that came to the sign of window that were going to work or coming home from work.

Run away cars. You know, a car was sent on over the home and it might have been too heavy and they didn't put enough of breaks on it to slow it down, slamming into a train down there. I'll give you an instance. What happened in a case, like that.

Back in the day that I was first, hiring the breakman would ride these cars down over the home and put the brakes on by hand in some instances. And one of those instances, a guy was riding one of those cars that was rammed into a draft of cars so hard.

He was thrown off of that car and it really ripped his own right off. He had such a grip on the wheel, You know, the breaker, the brake wheel, It had a chain on it to manually put on the brakes and it was just a free accident. That happened to a guy and we heard so many stories about different people that got hurt and got foul and got cut up underneath it.

Instead of wheels that rolled over them last people, lost legs people got cut in half horribles that is people got caught between the couplers terrible situation. It was one instance like that that happened and he got the say goodbye to his family and then they pulled the car apart and that was it his family got that got to come down on the in the yard to say goodbye to.

There were a lot of harsh stories but I don't want to make it sound like that that was like that all the time but those are things that happened that those are the kind of stories that were passed on to the generations. That were a lot of guys that were mean on the railroad and they had a fragrance club that they would carry to put on the brakes if they were stuck or it's a tighteners loose in them and that brakeman's club was used for more than one beating for somebody, that was always just main and rotten to everybody out.

There were people that got hurt in fist fights, that were things, that happen that to guys that, you know, shape up or shit about type situation, almost like the army. Yeah.

Well, so it's been a while and you've been almost probably close to 20 years since you retired. So, I don't know if you'll be able to answer this question, but what advice would you give someone starting in? Starting with the reverent today, I would tell him to go ahead and do it for our area.

You'd have to go to Atlanta to hire and they do advertise these positions. And if somebody would say, what do you think about doing this? Do you think there's any any good to it? And I would say, I would say go ahead and do it. Whatever the position might be, that you're interested in.

They're going to train you. Well, and they really will. And you're in other than classroom, you'll be taken out and work with. Whoever you're going to work with and be trained on the job, you may be qualified as our. You might have your bachelor's degree and some field and may never be able to apply that to a position that you're going to work on a railroad.

But then again, you may be able to become management. If you get out there and learn certain positions management, might see that say this guy's don't really good after and they may look at his application and say let's bring him inside and see how he does on these kind of positions.

So I would say anybody that wants to work in a railroad, I would say do it. You're going to be trained. Well, you're going to get paid well. Now, when I first hired, I got $20 a day, I can't believe it $20 a day. I made $100 a week and I never expected to do that When I was in high school, I was one of my goals was to make 10,000 dollars a year.

And that was our heck of a wish back then with no education. I didn't go to college, by the way, I would I would have never made it. I might have made it better than I did in high school but I wouldn't qualify the exams. But yeah, 10,000 and my first year, I made 80 some hundred dollars and as time went on the union got me more and more and more more money, 37 bucks an hour.

When I, when I retired, that's unbelievable. This was 20 years ago. Yeah, 20 years ago and there's probably 10 bucks at it onto that now and they got that matter how better health benefits. Now, today than we then I did we got some health benefits and they got better and better over time, we were also given stock options, 401k that came in to play my last 15 years.

I didn't get to invest a whole lot into it but I did get a 401k fortunately. When I got out of there today you're really going to be able to build one because you're going to make a bundle of money. Hopefully the cost of living won't carry it. So I tell them to go ahead and do it the railroads way safer than it used to be way safer.

Lot of us electronically controlled and you're going to be with the program because today that's what you've learned in high school. Well I already asked my second to last question which was sort of how as Cumberland County or his Pennsboro change in regards to sort of the row yard.

So the last question I always ask is, was there anything I should have asked her that you would like to mention before we end

I would like to say thank you. This is really been something unexpected in my life. When I got off the railroad, I was going to go to the historical society up in Perry County Perry historians because they do genealogy and I was really up to my ears in geneology as our family historian, and then I met a guy but the name of her Krueger who was forming the historical society of these.

Pennsboro at the Pumpkin Fest, He was signing up names to be members, and collecting money. So, I talked to her and I said, look, I'm planning to go to Perry County in 2003 when I retire and he said, well come and see me Well between 1999 when he was doing this in 2003, he already was in a building and had the historical society where we rolling.

So I went down and saw him and I said I'll be back in 30 days. I needed some time after the railroad to do some things that weren't going to time me up. So I went back and I talked to her been. I went to work right away for my whole first year.

I typed the census from 1790 to 1940, that put it in a database, everybody's name in the census and our township. So I learned a heck of a lot in there and I was really starting to really enjoy being involved in the historical society because it was my hometown.

Yeah. And I was learning more and more about my town. I didn't know anything about an old Pennsylvania, being named after Reno Miller, some railroad name of our town. So yeah, the railroad helped me be a better retiree because now I, I have been audited the job that herb had as the director of the historical society.

These Pennsboro, and a lot of the stuff we deal with every day is railroad related, we have a wonderful railroad museum at our historical society and we're getting ready to build a new historical society and to expand on that railroad history. You know what Miller's house is on the property where our historical society's going to be.

So, you know, a yard has influenced me to be a better retiree to keep busy. And I can still touch base with a lot of the guys that I work with that are still living, they still get together for lunches and stuff. And I could still touch base with these guys.

They help me out at times to figure out things that had to do with the railroad that I can remember. And forward that aren't unknowing people that come into our historical society. Yeah, that's really it and that show, I hope I tried to cover. As much as you know, it's fantastic.

I just want to say thank you for coming sharing some stories and for teaching me of it about railroads and the NLA yards and as well as the town of Enola and in East Pennsboro. So thank you so much. I appreciate it. All right.