Paul Richards

Interview of Paul Richards for the Elizabeth V. and George F. Gardner Digital Library Memory Bank. Richards discusses growing up in Wilkes-Barre, PA and how he came to be involved in swimming and coaching.

The following is a machine generated transcript:

Today is August 4th 2021 and I am here at the Cumberland County Historical Society with Paul Richards. So Paul thank you so much for coming in today. Thanks for having me. I So I was like just start off by asking a little bit about where you grew up in what your family like family life was like so I have here that you grew up in the Wilkes-Barre Pennsylvania area, so.

Yeah grew up in northeast, Pennsylvania and in Wilkes-Barre. And write down not. Dan the shopping district, but in the residential district of close to all the schools. And it was we had a big family six kids in our family a different different times, you know, my dad worked multiple jobs to you know, pay the bills and and my mom had the biggest full-time job, you know, taking care of six kids and raising six kids.

It was a you know, I look back at it and, Very thankful for that that experience Volkswary at that time was a community that very family-friendly. We kind of wandered all over town and we knew every backyard and every alley and you know you go running playing games at night and you know running through yards and you knew when to duck because there was a clothesline and and you knew had the fences you could get over and the ones you couldn't and so it was it was fun growing up there and and it was a time when you know, we we get up in the morning and we'd leave the house and as long as you were backed by, Dinner time, you know, it was fine.

It was very you learned to be creative. It wasn't all structured activities, although we spent a ton of time at the at the pool obviously because that became my my love and my profession but very very much kind of on your on your own doing your own thing and I I looked today at all the camps there's a camp for every single thing you could imagine now and and I know times have changed and there are reasons for it, but I think the structure has created a little.

Bit of a. Problem with with creativity that you know kids don't sometimes just don't know how just have fun. You know everything they've done they've had a coach they've had a supervisor they've had something and that just that just wasn't how I grew up and nobody had the money to do that anyway, you know if there was a camp you couldn't afford to go.

You started working as soon as you were able to my family was very involved with the the YMCA and Wilkes-Barry my dad was a volunteer there all the time. My brothers and I, Grew up there I mean it was about a mile from our house so we would walk to the Y and do our thing and walk home.

We probably there four days during the week and then pretty much all day on Saturday and it was it was an adventure on Saturday that you'd go in the morning and you'd have Jim you'd have swim you'd have some other activities there would be there was a craft shop there there was a little cafeteria we'd have lunch and then we would leave and we would go into downtown Wilkes-Barre and we'd go to the the Bosler or not the bob it was the booster how free library and from there go out the back door.

And there was a museum like this that we could go into and then we would walk over town and we go to a movie and I can remember specifically paying 25 cents for for a movie and we go to matinee on Sunday and then the end of the day was over but it was a it was a fun way to grow up and the the schools were all neighborhood schools, so you my high school was from seventh to twelfth grade, so you became part of a community and I know that's not what they like now they you know, they're more there's more stratification in.

Education now than there was then but it was kind of neat that you were part of that high school community for six years and I was actually part of it for even longer because my older brother who was two years older than me when he went to high school and seventh grade the swimming coach at that time said to him, don't you have a brother and he said yeah but he's in fifth grade and the high school coach said when it doesn't matter tell me needs to be here tomorrow, so I started swimming with my high school when I was actually in fifth grade.

I was back on the PI double they didn't really have very many rules about any. Thing and everybody just kind of did what they what they wanted to do and you know, I guess we were middle class. I don't know. I mean, I don't you know, we worked for what we had we had jobs.

I started working at the Y when I was young I worked lifeguarding jobs every summer you got as many jobs as you could to make as much money as you could to kind of get you through the you know the school year so you had money to you know, go to a football game go to a dance to do whatever you want to do, so it was a it was a good time.

I enjoyed it. I was gonna ask you all the brother it's two years old and you were you the second oldest or I had older sister older brother than myself and then younger sister and two younger brothers and the the span of years of our of the kids and our family is actually 20 years so it was almost like two different families, you know, the first four were in this in this one era and then as people started moving on then, you know the next four who were just I remember my two youngest brothers.

I remember them being born and and helping take care of them. But then I was gone so I wasn't there for much of you know, their. You know, their young years or their development. So, you know kind of but it's been interesting. You know to because now I get to watch them as they kind of go through their mid years and and their families are growing and it's been kind of fun and my youngest brother is actually a Franciscan Monk and that was just a decision he made probably about six or seven years ago.

He was working as a. He was a psychological counselor at State Correctional Institute of Camp Hill and just said I can't do this anymore and he had always he had spent some time at seminary he thought he wanted to go that route that ended up not being what he wanted and he explored the Franciscans and just finally said that's what I'm going to do and and it's quite a process and you know, you need to difest yourself of everything.

And so, he left central Pennsylvania. He was from Elizabethtown. That's where he was living and working. But he left Central Pennsylvania with one bag and when To San Francisco. And has never been happier. He just loves the you know, he has purpose he serves he gives he takes care of people and just really he's thriving on what he's doing.

So, I'm really happy for him. Yeah. She talked a little bit about your parents. I was like asking what what their names were and what they you mentioned your mother stayed at home and raised six kids and then your father's occupation as well. Yeah, my mom her name was Jane her bill name was her maiden named Parker.

She was actually I think pretty sure she was born in Berwick Pennsylvania, which is about two hours north of here. She was an only child and my dad. I'm named after my dad, so I'm he's Paul those Richards. I'm Paul Lewis Richards, Jr. And my son has Paul Lewis Richards the third and I think my son has arrived at the point that that I arrived at eventually where I was actually thankful for that name because initially it was like, you know, I don't have my own identity, you know, I share this name with my dad.

I don't have this and then I finally you know took me a while growing up and to get mature enough to realize that that it was actually an honor, you know to have your dad's name so my dad. Did a lot of different things but what I remember the most was his his professional career was in sales and he worked for transportation companies so he worked for a trucking company called Branch Motors, he had worked for a couple trucking companies before that but while he was doing that he was also running the family machine shop in Wilkes-Barre because his dad had a machine shop and died very young and that was the only income for my grandmother so my dad continued to run that.

Machine. Job after his work he would he would come home and he'd have supper like in five minutes and then head out the door and go to the machine shop and he'd work to like 11 o'clock at the machine shop and for a while after that and I don't remember this but I remember my mom telling me was that he would go from he come home have dinner and go the machine shop he'd leave the machine shop at 11 o'clock and go to the stagmaier brewery and he would well beer bar barrels until like 2:30 three o'clock in the morning he come home sleep for like three hours and get up and do it all over again.

So he I I never had to work quite that hard but it was a clear lesson in work ethic and also in taking care of your family, you know, you do what you need to do to whatever it is to take care of your family and I got to work in the machine shop when I was in high school and one summer afterwards and then 1972 hurricane Agnes came through and South Wilkes-Barre was just totally destroyed our house was about three blocks from the river we had I think about twelve.

Feet of water at our house we had moved things up onto the second floor we had move things in the basement up on top of counters thought they would be okay and we ended up that we had three feet of water on the second floor so pretty much everything was destroyed but I got to work in the machine shop before that happened and it was a great lesson in not just in a skill and I wouldn't call myself a machinist my dad was but but I you know, I learned what it meant to to do hard work because it was hard, you know, when you work with metal like that your hands.

Get sliced up all the time and and it's so sharp you don't feel it when it happens you only feel it at the end of the the night when you go to wash your hands and you put the soap on your hands and you it's like you're screaming like how did this happen so so he you know, he really I think instilled in me a work ethic that that I value, you know, all my professional career, you know, I just, You know it didn't you just did whatever you need to do to get the job done you didn't watch the clock you didn't worry about how many hours you worked you just did it and and got it done and I think that was probably why you know, as soon as I was able to that I was going out looking for jobs and also I wanted to you know, I wanted to have I wanted a bike and you know, they couldn't buy bikes for six kids and so I had the you wouldn't remember this but people who were sold as I do there used to be a very tiny magazine called the TV.

Guide that came out weekly. And it was the whole week's worth of at that time you know cable channels didn't exist so it wasn't you know, wasn't that much but I didn't want to do a paper route because I it was too much with swimming which what I what I was doing all the time but I figured I could do this TV guy ground which was once a week and I could make some money so I literally I went out and solicited, you know customers and I had a TV Guide route of about 85 or 90 customers that in my you know in like a five or six block radius actually a friend of mine and I we we split up the neighborhood.

Said you know you can take from this block down to here and over and I'll take here over and we both went out and we built these TV guide routes and I remember when I I had my eye on a you know, a red Schwinn 10 speed, you know, because I wanted a new bike and they couldn't do it and I remember that's how I got it was doing this this TV Guide Room, and I took that bike to college with me and the first week I was in school was stolen, so there was a lesson so you know, you need to lock your bike up better than and and do that, so it was you know, my mom and dad.

The very very traditional very conservative but I look and I and I say that. You know I think I I got the work ethic from my dad and you know taking care of your family for my dad and from my mom I got the the sense of responsibility of service because she never means she could have gone and worked outside the house at any time and even when all the kids were grown, she didn't she didn't look for a paying job she just volunteered more and when they mean she volunteered with the Red Cross she volunteer with the schools and when they left.

Wilkes very after the flood, we tried to rebuild our House and it was just too damage we couldn't do anything with it, so we ended up selling the land and they bought a house actually down in Burke back to Berg Pennsylvania kind of moved back to she had some cousins back there, I believe and she became the the first trustee of their church, she became the first she was the first woman to get with some special award from the Red Cross, they don't remember what it was we all used to do meals on wheels with her and so we really, you know, we learned about service from her and I and that's something that That stayed and continues to stay with me throughout my life it's something that we stressed with every team that I ever worked with in my professional career and student groups that I advise it's it's all been about humble service and you don't need credit for it, it's not why we do it we do it because it's the right thing to do and it needs to be done and nobody has to there's no chest thumping.

That's one of those athletic things that just really. Wears on either wrong way, you know look at look at me yeah that's just completely appropriate, you know, look at all the people around you because that's why you're successful it's not because of you you know, it's not nobody does anything on their own it's always always a you know, that that concept of the community that lifts you up, that's what makes you successful.

You mentioned that you started swimming with your high school team, which I see here is Myers High School in fifth grade, yeah. What what drew you to swimming? I guess. I think what we live very close to one of the outdoor community pools in Wilkes-Barre area a pool called minor park and we that was probably that was one of the.

Pretty influential places I'd say the Wilkes-Barre why minor park were pretty influential on my my early youth those two places were where I learned how to swim and it, you know, funny funny kind of story that I'm happy I can tell because I'm still here is that my brother was two years older than me and so he already knew how to swim and we would go to the Y for swim lessons and they had different groups in the pool and they'd have the first you know, 30 or 40 minutes of an hour we're actual lessons and they blow the whistle and Then there was ten minutes of free swim so when they blow the whistle you know the kids who you know knew how to swim you know climbed out of the pool headed down to the deep end and you know, either off the diving board or in the water and I just climbed out the pool and went and I didn't know how to swim and they they most of the time intercepted me before I got there because I would just jump right in and I just you know didn't have the wherewithal to understand that I shouldn't be doing that and I just hanging out underwater just like all right now what do I do and the lifeguard would jump in and grab me and pull me out and they just kept saying to you know to my dad.

We need to teach him how to swim because one of these times we're not going to see him, you know, he's not he's not going to go so they would know that when the the whistleblue they had to snag me before I jumped in so finally I learned how to swim and just became an activity that it was like a family activity, you know, my dad was involved in the why my brother I was following my brother, which I did a lot in my life just kind of kind of followed his path and it was it was something that I I became good at pretty quickly when I was tenure.

Years old. I was the runner up at the YMCA state championships and I went out this is cool, you know, let's keep doing it and my my dad drove us all over the state. I mean the trips that we made, you know to go literally I think we had every corner of the state summer swimming we traveled all over the place and it was and it was a time probably before all the big clubs, you know, it was just local, you know, local clubs the YMCA and, I think every town had a YMCA then and so, you know week travel around Northeast Pennsylvania swim at eight or nine different different YMCAs and then Meyers high school was a pretty aggressive swimming program at that time and whereas now and it's you know, I'm guessing it's rules for the PI double A we used to laugh because now I think they can start sometime bit in November they start practice and they're done by February early March at the latest our first day of high school swim practice was the first day of school.

The last day of high school swim practice was the day before the first day of school. We just went year-round. I mean, it just it never stopped. We went and put everybody was there because they wanted to be there and there were no restrictions on seasons and so kids who wanted to swim and wanted to get better.

That's what they did. The ones who you know, wanted to swim and play basketball and play football and play baseball. They mixed it up. They did different stuff, but those of us who you know decided that's what I wanted to do then that's that's what you did. So we came.

And it became a part of my an important part of my high school experience an important part of my college selection process and my undergrad degree as business and econ I worked in business for six years and said nope not what I want to do. I know what I want to do and I was really very fortunate.

I had a some good networking and started coaching and in college and 38 years later said, all right, let's wrap it up. We mentioned the PIA was a little bit less restrictive or unregulated back when you started swimming. Did you have any particular disciplines like freestyle butterfly distances that you were focused in on or was it kind of just a free fall whatever or whatever they were doing that me is what you were.

Yeah, I think my I think initially I would have I well, My dad one of the things my dad wanted me to do and encourage me to do was to to do all the strokes and I think I probably became better at butterfly a little quicker than a lot of other people because it was a transition time in swimming for development of these strokes butterfly was the fourth stroke that was added to the to the other competitive strokes and when they first started doing butterfly in the, Probably early 1950s maybe maybe late 40s but it no earlier than the early 1950s or later on 92, they did butterfly with the armstroke that's used today, but they used a breaststroke kick and kind of awkward but that's what everybody was doing and that's how I initially learned how to do it and there was you know, we we saw changes coming and we saw that this this change was going to come to butterfly was people were going to start doing a dolphin kick and it was really hard.

I mean, it was it was hard to coordinate the time. Ing and it was physically hard and you were still allowed to do butterfly with the breaststroke kick and that's what most people did and my dad made me do the dolphin kick and he said everybody's gonna be trying to catch up to you when they change the rule and he said and they are gonna change the rule you might as well change now.

And so it actually paid off. So, I swam butterfly a lot. I swam freestyle and I did. I swam some I am. And those are probably the things that I swam the most in high school. And my high school pool was a very unique situation instead of being 25 yards long it was a 20 yard pool built back in I think the 1920s or 1930s when they were still they were distances for track and field and swimming were similar so with 20 yard pools, you know, I can track them they were running a 220 instead of a 200 meter they were on a 440 instead of 400 meter and so in swimming they were doing the same thing, so they built these 20 yard pools swimming.

Transition pretty quickly it didn't go to meters but it went to yards yards races so we were doing a lot of strange distances and strange lengths so we did five lengths for a hundred instead of four we did ten for a two hundred the the upside of it was our team had probably the best terms of anybody in the district, it was no one liked to come swim at our pool because it was just so odd to swim there.

But it was really you know you tried to if you could you try to learn everything and it was also from a team standpoint you never knew where you'd be needed and when I was very young on on the swim team, I wasn't the best butterfly or the best freestyle so I was looking for a place, you know, where where's my slot how can I be on this team I want to be on the team and you had to there was a very strict regimen that you had to meet to get a letter and you know, you got points for you know, scoring in an event you got points for practice attendance you got and I logged.

All that stuff throughout the year and I like from the my first day of high school practice every day when I came home I had a was a loosely finder opened it up and I remember I memorized the practice and I wrote down the practice every day what I did and closed that up and then I kept a chart during swim season, so I knew exactly how many points I had how many meets we had left, you know, am I gonna get a letter you know, what do I need to do in order to get because that was important, you know, that was a you know a measurement of achievement, but it was also status and you wanted to to get a letter.

And when you were ninth grade they gave you a letter. Which is I still have it it's a wool, it's itchy it's probably got holes in it, but you know, it's something that I've that I've kept forever. I don't think my son wants it it's I don't think it'll get passed down anywhere, but maybe I'll give it to the museum, you know, they can they can have it but it was and then I'd say in college.

I kind of went. Like a 180 because I started out my last two years of high school kind of kind of became a pretty good distance swimmer and I think you know probably a character flaw but I think the things that I picked were things that nobody else wanted to do because it it just said to me, you know, I'm tough I can do this, you know, nobody wants to do this.

I'm gonna do it and, So the camera pretty good distance swimmer and then my freshman year in college I was actually at the University of Connecticut, I followed my brother there on a swimming scholarship followed a blindly it was probably the last place I should have gone and after spending a year there realized that this is not where I belong and I, you know, rescinded my scholarship and and left and went to Bloomsburg for for three years after that when I got to bloomsburg, I became a sprinter which is so odd, you know, because I went from swimming, you know, the thousand freestyle to now it's one of the 50 free stuff.

And the hundred free stuff and I said I remember sitting there the one day thinking this is actually pretty cool because I just go down and back get out, you know, I don't have to swim forty laps anymore, you know, this is and it and they they were the races that I ended up competing at NCAA National Championships it and I don't know that I ever would have done that in distance it could have but I don't know so it was a it was a 180 for sure and and it was a lot of fun.

What was it about Bloomsburg that the dream there. Was a school that I had looked at originally and you know was one of the it was one of the schools on my list and I remember the. It's so funny when I when I look back and. See what my process was like and and know what high school students go through now in the process and what my son went through you know, when I worked with him through his process.

Our guidance counselors at that time you go. I think I saw them once maybe twice but you go in and you know growing up and Wilkes-Barre they would say well you can apply to Wilkes which is in Wilkes-Barre, you can apply to Kings that's in Wilkes-Barre and you can go to Louisiana.

County Community College that's in Wilkes-Barre. Really that's it, that's all I can do you know, there's nothing else and I just said no way mean. I know my brother's looking and I was a good enough athlete that there are some schools reaching out to me. I was being recruited not heavily, but I had contact from Purdue East Carolina Rutgers.

I wanted to look at Penn State and I remember going down to Penn State and the swim coach wouldn't talk to me and I was so offended so I just and I could have you know gone and just walked on but I said nevermind he doesn't want me I looked at Bucknell and and I think bloomsburg was just, you know, one of those places that when I when I finally gave it, you know, maybe the the attention that it deserved and looked at you know, what was going on academically what was going on athletically that it it seemed like it would be a place that I fit in.

A place that they could use me so I would still I would still have a role and you know be able have a chance to get better so I just and it was you know, what 45 minutes from Wilkes-Barre, that was close and it was you know, literally the summer I I came home from the University Connecticut in.

May 1972 June 21st the river came over and so even trying to to make that process work anything that was any further away than that. I don't know that I could have done it, you know out of logistics like how do I how do I figure out where I'm gonna go what I'm gonna do because you know, we're trying to clean up trying to rebuild a house trying and I just said plz right there, you know, I'm gonna do that and it turned out to be a great decision.

I mean, it was a good excellent experience. For me academically socially athletically still get together and this is 45 years 46 years ago, I graduated still get together every summer with guys that I swam with with guys that I was in a fraternity with we have a couple golf outings every summer and it's and it's fun to just you know get together and some people you still recognize some you know, we change a lot, you know over the time and when the the old swimmers get together and they talk about.

You know, what what what they swim in college and you know times that they did they go. I don't remember you ever gone that fast, you know, I don't think so, but maybe maybe but I don't think so, but it's still fun and we keep in touch there's a lot of email threads, you know, that's the maybe the one thing I really like about the internet yeah is that we can keep in touch there are things.

I don't like about it, but that's okay. Um, we mentioned that you graduated from Bloomsburg with the degree in our business, so you mentioned that you enjoyed the academics there so wondering what drew you to sort of business and learning more about it? Well, I think. And I don't regret the my business background because I think it was actually instrumental in in me doing my my job correctly as a as a swim coach as aquatic director as a manager of a facility the budgeting the the recruiting for competitive swimming which is which is very intense and and very very time considering consuming so I think that you know, the things that I learned in that in that field were helpful but that probably wasn't why I went down that road.

I, Think at that time the the you know, the conversations the culture on social conversations were I I know in my heart I wanted to teach and I wanted to coach but the the push was won't make any money teaching coaching you need to go into business and so I just I was you know, I'll be the first to admit that that I was a really young college student.

I mean, I wasn't 21 until halfway through my senior year, so I was immature when I started I was. Volume mature and I finished probably still am but but I I look back at that and say I did a lot of following and and not a lot of listening to myself probably and so you know tried to tried the business world did some different things work for at that time roadway.

Express which is trucking company worked for burrows which but I worked for their their not the computer branch, but they're they're computer forms branch didn't care for it was a sales job didn't care for that at all. Worked in worked in a bank in Scranton for a little while and the good thing that came out of that was I met my wife.

So no complaints about that, but the the banking industry was. Was changing dramatically anyway, it wasn't any you know, no more hometown banks, you know, they're all got gobbled up by the by the big banks. So did a lot of stuff and finally. I just said that's enough. You know, I'm done and I was I was volunteering to help a local swim team and.

Was I had gotten back in touch with my college coach and I had asked him I knew he had a film that that we had seen and I wanted to borrow it from to see if I could show it to this team. So we had started to to reconnect and I went down the Bloomsburg had lunch with him and we're sitting down there and you know, I was telling him I said, you know, I don't know how I'm going to do this, but I I really want to try and make this career move and and I just I don't know how to do it.

And he said to me, he said well he said it's funny you should say that because this is not exactly what you're talking about but there was a guy in the in the P department who had just gone out on a medical leave and he said we're in a jam and we need somebody to teach his classes.

And I said do you think they would let me do that because you know I wasn't certified to teach you anything and he said you can swim he said you can do these other things and so I said okay and so they called me down back again for and the department interviewed me and it all went bang bang bang and a matter of days and they offer me the position so it was a one semester a position to fill in for this teachings about it.

I taught swimming. I taught archery our top bowling. I taught Batman and I taught volleyball. I mean, it was I had a bunch of classes and it was awesome. It was wonderful. And at the same time, I volunteered to be an assistant coach and just help out and and got some good experience there.

And we were sitting it was in springtime and we were sitting in the coaches' office and we're making phone calls for scheduling for the following year. And he called Hartwick College in Oneonta New York to schedule a meet and the athletic director at Heartway said, oh it's funny that he called because my swim coach just quit just walked out the door and my coach said, hold on.

A sec. I'll let you talk to somebody who's interested in the job And so he puts me on the phone and we're talking and I I've got like zero experience, you know, I've got one semester of volunteer assistant experience. I had a good swimming background, but coaching knots, you know, nothing to speak of.

And the athletic director of heart with college said to me, he said, here's the deal. He said if you come up here this week and he said, I'm gonna give you a car and he said you need to drive to Northampton Massachusetts. He said there's a girl there that we're trying to recruit.

And she's a multiple time all American her college closed she was going to Eisenhower College. Her college closed she needs to find a place to swim if you can convince her to come to heartworm then you'll be our next head swim coach. So I grew up drive to Northampton.

I have lunch with this girl on her mom. I will remember it forever and you know at the end of lunch we're talking I said to her so what do you think? Now I did not was not completely forthcoming. I didn't tell her I was not yet the coach.

I said, what do you think she said, I Think it's great you know I'll see you in August I said okay, I'll see you drove back to Hartwick gave the keys the car I said she's coming he stood up shook my hand he said you're our new coach no application no background checks, no nothing just you're the new coach and it was it was a just a great start it was a lot of fun coach men's and women's swimming intramural director aquatic director taught classes made no money at all, it was like nothing.

I can't believe I started for that little non money, but it was a it was a great experience led me to my, Next job Mary Washington and then Mary Washington to here but yeah kind of a an interesting route to my coaching career, but again the the business piece of it.

I think was was really valuable and it also it taught me to write made me. I think more comfortable with speaking. I've never been uncomfortable speaking. I probably talked too much. I know the kids on the swim team to Dickinson would always ask the bus driver when they got on the bus to not allow me to have the microphone so.

Well you mentioned that I have a few things here that I want to ask, but I'm just speaking of recruiting sounds like. There were a few things that may or may not have helped you. I mean, you said you had a little bit of a background in sales and.

Some wondering was that useful at all and I think it was because I mean recruiting is sales and that was the piece that I probably didn't like the most about sales and I and I think it was because but I think it was because. I had a hard time separating.

How would I put this sales and whatever the the product is and myself and so if if I didn't really believe. In what I was offering I really struggled with with that because I felt I was lying, you know, I'm being on ethical and I never had a problem doing that with with my experience in in higher ed and college women because I always felt very proud of you know, who I was working for what we're trying to accomplish and encouraging people to to come join us and I think I approached it in a different way too.

I really, you know, we approached everything from a team concept and and from the, Very first day that I that I coached I made it a point and I would share this with people that I never refer to this as my team it's not my team. I never refer to the athletes.

I work with as my athletes and coaches do it all the time it's just part of their vernacular it's what they say and I would always say you're you're not my swimmers. I don't own you. I don't possess you are a member of our team our team we're all part of this together and I'm a part of the team too we all have different roles we have different responsibilities and my role of my responsibility.

Is to make all this work and to make those decisions and we jokingly, you know used to say you may live in a democracy but this is not part of it, you know, because I'm going to make the decisions and I'm happy to listen to you but once again I'm going to make the decisions and so I think the sales piece was helpful but I think the organizational piece and the budgeting piece may have been just as you know, just as helpful because when you're trying to, You know to to manage or administer a team of 48 student athletes and you're planning practice schedules and you're ordering gear and you're you know getting the bus for a trip and ups don't forget about food, you know, and then when you have meets that are three and four days long we throw in the hotel and transportation back and forth and it's really if you aren't.

If you aren't a real structured organized person you're you're gonna make mistakes and the unfortunate outcome of those must stakes is that it hurts the swimmers hurt Seattle's and that's something I never ever wanted to do, you know, if I was gonna make a mistake may make it me don't not something that's gonna hurt somebody on the team, but I felt really strongly about that that we created a culture where everybody understood that we were all on this together we when we won we won together when we lost we lost together never pointed fingers.

Never took credit there were meets that we would win by one point, you know out of a total of you know, the 103 to 102. And and I would say to them after meet I'd say who's point was it? And you know, you got someone sitting right here who won three events and scored 27 points.

Somebody sitting over here about fifth place and one event scored one point. So who's point was it? You tell me and the point is everybody's if everybody didn't do exactly what they did we would not have one that me. So we worked really hard to develop a culture that was very team oriented very very supportive and.

I think that. Well it shows you know, I've been retired for not quite two years. I guess in here. Still in touch with a lot of people. We've had two wedding so far this summer. We're on the perpetual weddings circuit. You know, I went through the list with my wife the other day and I said I said, there's still at least 12 more.

It's they're not all next years but they're still at least 12 more than you know, that we're going to be at and this past weekend. I was in Washington DC the alums who lived down there will most them that there are some of them also came from Philadelphia New York.

They wanted me to come down and spend the weekend with them. They got me an Airbnb and paid for it just so we could all get together and spend time together. So it may sound cliche but it's it's like it's a family for sure and over the years spent a lot of time counseling not.

To just coaching. A lot of times working with people on academic things, you know sitting either in my office or in the library helping them work on a paper, you know, and and I always told them that you know, if you have a problem come talk to me, you know, we we can work anything out you might not like how it works out, but we can we can work it out and I'm not gonna fix it for you but I'm gonna tell you how to fix it.

And then I'm gonna support you and help you along with. And so, I think that. Maybe was one of the most important things that we build that culture that that creates that that kind of bond.

And winning is obviously important everybody wants to and you know, and and I remember when two years ago, I guess it was I had my 500th coaching career win and somebody said to me, you know, did you know that was 500 and I'm like yeah, no actually somebody told me no, that's good.

And you know, so the team got really excited about it and I said, you know, I didn't swim in any of those beats. I didn't score a single point in any of those meets. I said you guys did all that you know, but we did you know, we did it together.

I get it. So if it's if it's a recognition, it's it's a recognition for all of us.

So I'm thinking going back to you know, that uh, you mentioned when you were in fifth grade being very interested. I'm a food was fifth grade exactly but soon after you started swimming for your high school. Keeping track of every practice what you did. So it seemed like even back then you were very organized and detailed oriented.

I still have the notebook. So I guess I'm wondering I mean did you do that all throughout your swimming career or was that just I stopped I stopped writing workouts down when I got to college. Okay, I figured somebody else could take care of that now. I hope I was hoping that I had good coaches and they were you know, they're doing what they needed to do.

Well, one of the reasons I was asking that as I was wondering I mean, That as inspiration for your when you when you were now a coach and you had to develop workouts for for your the athletes that were. Heart wake college team or the Mary Washington. College team or the Dickinson College.

Yeah, I think I was always a detail oriented person and and I think that was part of the structure and it was. It was nice to actually see and helpful to see administratively how things changed over the 38 years that I coached. When I was Hardwick and, For the first few years at Mary Washington.

There was nothing automated. Well, that's not exactly true but it was if the the ability to produce reports was almost no. So we had electronic timing systems, but it produced like a little tape on the machine and then I would take that tape and I would transcribe it onto another form, that was a results form no computers.

I did not have a computer when I was at Hardwood. There was a computer room on campus that I remember my last year there. They had put something in the campus new. Who's about hey if you want to come learn how to use this computer and like nobody want to do it I said I'll be right there.

You know, I I need to know this I want to see this and because my experience prior to that with computers was in college doing computer programming where you keep punched cars and you give the computer operator the stack of cards, it was like, you know this big and they'd run it through their machine that was as big as this room and then you get an error code and you'd have to find the card that was wrong and go back and fix it.

So, this was really enticing to me. I said, this is cool. This is this little thing instead of this massive room. And then when I got to Mary Washington, we had a similar kind of timing system produced now produced a times on was that dot matrix paper that lit it out like that.

So that was a nice change still didn't give me the reports that I needed so we had a a three, you know, I can't remember what they were called but you didn't hopefully didn't have to use carbon but it was three pages and you wrote on one and went through so you could give a copy to the visiting team copy to.

For yourself and then maybe the newspaper or something like that. But it wasn't until we started hosting championship meets at Mary Washington that I actually got a computer. No one else in the department had a computer. And and I got a computer because I had this I had found this program called High Tech Meat Manager and it it administered the meat and it seated things and did results and you know, produce reports and everything.

So I needed a computer and I needed a printer. It was not connected to the internet. It didn't have email. I had nothing like that, but it was. Such a you know I look back over the changes from doing used to do index cards for entries and I always even when I first came to Dickinson for a long time you had to turn an entry cards that meets for events and I would always at the end of the meat I would get all those entry cards back and then that night I would spend hours and I would take each one of those cards and I would fill in the information.

I had designed these cards so that I could put their their final time the place how many points they scored on and I fill that in and then I would turn. The card over and I would write them notes on every card about the the splits what we need to work on when we need to fix what was good and I would fill the back of the card and it would take me four or five hours like after me to do that and then at the next practice they'd come in and they'd all we had a little mailbox system set up and they'd all get their cards and to this day some swimming alums who I talked to they'll tell me they still have those cards.

You know, they kept them. And then we got to the point where the high-tech meet manager program also have a team manager program to. Do the interface and you're able to send meet information to team manager and then produce reports by going click, click click and now what I took me five hours to do, you know I did in like 30 seconds.

Now, it didn't have the you know that personal touch but I would still I would take that results sheet that they got and I would still write some notes on them. All right. Sometimes it'd be simple as you know, see me about your third 50, you know, see me about your start about your turn, you know, whatever.

And then we could have this kind of conversation and it wasn't something it was something that was going to be. Productive but to watch the the change over the years from when I first started swimming of stop watches with sweep second hands that might might have had fifths of a second in there on a little dial somewhere and you know parents, you know, writing out ribbons and to you know, what we have now this this instant result from a touchpad to a big a jumbo screen to reports that that goal can go all over the world.

It's it's been wild absolutely crazy. So you mentioned sort of that change over time. I'm wondering. You're at hard work for a few years and you went to Mary Washington in Fredericksburg PA. How did you end up at Dickinson? Good question and I think it was like each one of the moves that we made were kind of interesting because I remember when we moved from from New York to Virginia, we we were actually at a Frederickshire Virginia, but we were we were at a dinner at Hartwood College and there was a speaker and they're talking about demographics and he put a slide up and it was a a nighttime picture a satellite nighttime picture and so it showed lights.

And he was talking about the shifting population because so here's one from you know, 1970 and here's one from 1980 and you can look at and you can see that the changes and I was sitting there alongside my wife and I said, oh look at Virginia look at all the lights in Virginia.

I said a lot of growth there. I said that might be interesting and literally, you know, the somebody sent me I'm trying to remember how that actually happened yeah, there was actually a swimming official. Who was an official all the time I was swimming as a as a competitor and he also knew my dad because my dad was a swimming official and he had seen this posting of this job at Mary Washington and he sent it to me just out of the blue he sent it to me and so we talked about it and I said well, I don't know let's go look at it and and I went down and just looked like a great opportunity and it was something new and it was a lot warmer than upstate New York was in the middle of nowhere.

I've stayed here it was chilly we had snow. Graduation all the time up there was wild but hills too yeah, we're hard work is yeah on the hill so we used to joke about the pool being the only flat spot on campus and I wasn't sure that was even true but so it was just kind of one of those things that we we went to Virginia we I remember the conversation I just said to my wife I said, can you think of any reason not to go and she said not really no, all right, let's do it and then when we were in in Virginia, I was I turned 40 and it was kind of one of those moments one of those professional moments and personal moments where you say.

I only have one more move left if I'm going to move because I'm 40 years old the amount of money. I'm making now, you know, if I go much longer nobody's going to want to pay me, you know that they can hire somebody with less experience for less money and so we just this job at Dickinson came available and I started looking at it and it was also a time when our families which were all in the Pennsylvania area were starting to experience a lot of health problems and so we basically just decided that this was this was the time to do it, it's last chance to go.

And so applied for the job that offered the job and timing was good instead of six hours to our families, we were two hours for our families, so we're able to help out my mom and dad and my wife and mom and dad both, you know, became ill my brother was ill and it was also kind of I used to joke about it was the perfect distance that you know, if we wanted to get there we could and if I didn't want to go to my sisters party for her little girl for the birthday, I could say it's too far he never we're just far enough away that it's okay that That sorry Diane but it was a and then I also you know, we probably I think we looked and investigated Dickinson maybe more than most students do when they're picking in college because we knew this was gonna be the last move and I wanted to be someplace that that I could really be proud of that I could be vested in and Dickinson was a was a and still is obviously, you know, great institution.

Carlisle was kind of like a throwback town, you know, it reminded me even though it wasn't as big as Wilkes-Barre, you know. Neighborhood elementary schools sidewalks you know Virginia didn't have any sidewalks it was all you know, these caught these these subdivisions that they built that they just threw up houses real quick and so this was like getting back into a small kind of city where you could walk places where there's community and so we just looked at this as being a great opportunity and also from a professional standpoint that year.

I remember that year the previous year being at the national championships for swimming and looking at the the scoreboard and the Top 10 teams on the scoreboard are the top nine of the 10 were all private schools, there was only one state school there and we had experienced the the budget crunch of you know, state schools and in a lot of states, you know that the legislature balances the budget on the back of higher ed.

And so we just kind of we had been through several years of no pay raises and and things like that and I just said, you know, I don't think I want to stay in in a state environment state-run environment. I think I want to go to someplace where you know, I know it costs more but they make decisions about what they spend, you know based on what what their mission is, and what their objectives are nothing political.

Well that was foolish and clearly as political too but you know, at least that's what I thought then so but it was we we just thought that it was a good move personally my son was perfect for my son he was just going in the first grade when we moved here and we went from a he had a 45 minute bus ride to kindergarten in Virginia and we bought a house right behind the elementary school he had a 45 second walk to school, so he was just it was perfect and no regrets.

I was gonna say I kind of laughed a little bit when you said that you spent more time investing in the school than most students and I was gonna say I worked out well because you know you spent more than four years there so yeah that's well used to joke that you know, when I when I retired I said to the team I said, you know, I've tried for 26 years to graduate and I couldn't and now I finally graduated, you know, I'd like to say I have 26 years worth of knowledge that I'm not sure that's true but yeah, it's it was it was a great ride for sure.

No it's always taken some like and when you are in I guess more broadly what was Carla like when you first came you mentioned a little bit about that the neighborhood feel but wondering if you could expand on that a little bit yeah, you know my guess is that both have changed dramatically and I'm not sure that I've seen it because I've been part of the change but I but I remember I literally remember the first time I came to Carlisle.

And I drove in on on East High Street and I didn't know where I was going but I had you know direction and and I knew I was going to be here a few days, so I I wanted to get some information so I stopped. Trying to think where are the JFC staffing building mm-hmm used to be a sheets yeah and so I stopped I was the first place.

I stopped in car lots. I wanted to get a paper. I wanted newspaper and then while I was there, you know, they have magazine things you pick up I picked up a bunch of that stuff, you know realtor stuff and stuff like that, so I could take it home from my wife, so I remember going into that sheets and and grabbing a newspaper and then driving onto campus and it was a very different kind of feel for me because every other school that I had been at Was like a campus up on a hill, you know isolated away and this was like this campuses literally right in the middle of town, you know, it's split by a street by a big road there's traffic there's there's cars and I thought about that for you know, sitting in my car in the parking lot down at the Klein Center and I think about that and I'm thinking I'm not sure about this and then I said, well, you know what?

This is going to appeal to a lot of people who don't want to be isolated, you know, and it's I think there's some I think there's some really good things that can come from this and so that at that point. I kind of just put that away it didn't didn't intimidate me at all.

I thought the you know, the buildings were really nice it was a real pretty adventure and my interview process was two and a half days was forever. I mean, I think I met everyone on campus. I'm pretty sure I did and one of my last my very last interview.

I remember walking by my truck several times thing. I should just get my truck and go home as exhausted but my last interview was with the dean of the college to her down. And I went into his office and we shook hands Pleasantries and and he said so why do you want to be a Dickinson and I looked at him and I said well, I'm not sure I do.

I said that's what this process is about right you're interviewing me. I'm interviewing you and we're both gonna make decisions and maybe though and maybe they won't and he just looked at me and he said, Be the first person who's ever had the nerve to actually say that to me, he said I kind of like that we became great friends he was just a neat guy, he was just intrigued very very smart guy, but you know, we're able to be honest with each other and I was and I said to him I'm really sorry I'm just exhausted and he said it's okay, he said I get it but it was you know drove home and don't remember much of the ride home because thinking I had driven around town and everything and it just reminded me in some ways but I think it didn't even nicer way.

Because I think this this city it's definitely nicer than I think what a lot of Wilkes Barre has become workspace changed a lot over the years and and it's heart but it's hard to go home. I mean don't we don't we romanize the past yeah, you know, so it's not it's not even fair to make that kind of statement but it reminded me, you know of being in a city where you could walk everywhere and we we probably live in about five block radius, you know, it's just we live right behind the more little mentor school.

I walk up here into town, it's five blocks, you know. So I just remember thinking that this was a really nice place that I could bring my family to and they would be very happy here. Carlos schools were awesome for my son. And I remember when you know when we decided to move here some friends of mine said oh don't move to Carlisle you don't want to go there, you know move to a boiling Springs or move to you know, go to Cumberland Valley or whatever and I went no way I said this is this is where we want to be want to be right here and also I wanted to be really close to to the college because I'm not smart enough to live far away, you know, I get to I get to work and I realize I left something at home that I need, you know, or I get home and I left something at work that I need and so is I needed to be close because I just wasn't very bright.

No you mentioned yeah. I think the hardware can have been deployed. I haven't been to Mary Washington or. Stores where Yukon is but yeah no you're right Dickinson I think is unique in a lot of ways yeah Elizabethtown is the same way where a lot of these campuses are sort of you know, there's a very clear divide Dickinson you're ready it's right, you know well when it was and it was part of it was part of recruiting, you know, I think you talk about the elephant in the room, you know, you don't try and hide it because you can't there's an 18-wheeler coming to the street, you know, what do you got to talk about it and when I would talk with families, you know, I'd say to them, you know, it's it's very obvious, you know, the we were dropped right in the Middle of this.

And I said in there some really good things that that come out of that I said first of all you don't forget how to cross streets because students forget and then they do stupid things I said but honestly, it becomes a an extension of the community, you know students do community service in town, they do internships in town, they walk two blocks to shop they do, you know, this is we are part of this community and it's becoming even more so when when things change and I don't know how long it was but when things change in college students were allowed to register to vote where they're going to school, that was a big deal.

You being there most communities most college communities didn't want that, you know, they didn't want the college kids voting for their local elections and the reality is most the time they didn't yeah, they only voted was when it was a state or a national election but that's that's scared small towns that had colleges in it when they were allowed to do that.

I think it still does to some degree. Well, you know sort of certainly back to. Getting over a conversation you mentioned your mother and the importance of community service were you able to implement that more at Dickinson because of the I guess connection between the the college and the town the closeness.

I think so and I think we use some of those connections to to do things and what we always try to do we tried to to make sure that we did something some service for the college something for the Carlisle community and then something bigger maybe something. National and that so that what the national thing became pretty quickly was relay for life.

And we kind of took that on and I became the faculty advisor for relay for life and we had I mean, the swim team was many years the the highest fundraising group for relay for life, they were always the biggest presence at relay for life, we did it as a team and everybody went and everybody stayed up all night and we had a blast it was just like it got harder for me over the years, you know staying up all night, but but I did it and someone said to me one time it was another I can't remember who's a It was a student but I don't know if it was another team or whatever and and they said, you know, well, you know how come the swim team is the only team that stays, you know all night for relay for life and I said, I'm there.

You know, if I'm there they're gonna be there yeah, you know and if and if other coaches don't do that, why would their teams come instead they won't do it so I mean, there's your opportunity to lead by example and do something together as a team and and everything we did service wise we all did together in town we did things for what used to be.

Carlisle cares when cares first started I was. Part of a group of people who. You tried to to get this started and get it into the church's back when it started we recruited 12 churches to you know, each take a month. I ran them the month that Allison Church because that's where we went to church I ran it with some other people I drove the fan oftentimes shuttling people to when the churches went or out of town we you know, we did whatever whatever we could do, so we were pretty involved with that.

And and that involvement I think of the swim team doing some of that stuff also reached over into some other groups on campus doing that at a time when they were trying to build the the brand of Carlisle cares a class in political science doing a project took on a marketing advertising project for Carlisle cares and two of the people in that class were swimmers, so they you know, that connection was there already and they started doing that we used to do things like, We did a soccer drive and and what I would say to them is that if your feet are cold your body's cold, you know, if your feet are if your feet are wet your whole body's wet, you know, you don't understand and it is we know for a fact that the most ask for object item in in clothing places for homeless people are socks so we do a sock drive and sometimes we did a different different times sometimes they would bring the socks in sometimes they would you know, each line.

Would just be responsible for you know, twelve dollars, you know, and and they would go in their dorms and they would knock on doors and say, hey can you give me a quarter or whatever can you give me a dollar and they would come back and then I take all the money I go to Walmart and I'd buy every pair of socks they had Walmart, you know in a car and we take them down to the to the shelter we started doing.

Quite a while ago we did a Thanksgiving winter clothing drive and I would tell the team you know you're going on for Thanksgiving, you know, look in your closet. I know that you have a jacket in there, you don't wear anymore. I know you have a sweatshirt somewhere that you don't wear anymore and I said I'm gonna bet that you're siblings do also and your mom and dad do to so whatever is not being worn bring it back put it in bags bring it back and we would have 12 bags of clothing, you know in the back of my truck that we would take down to Carlisle cares and it was just and I would take different people from the team.

All the time so that they could see this they could see the thankfulness of these people was like Christmas that you know, and some of the stuff that the kids are donating still attacked, you know, they just never wore it and so here's a brand new sweater a brand new sweatshirt or something that somebody's getting and now they're you know, they're gonna be more homeless it's a terrible terrible issue, you know as in DC and just, The tent camps all over Washington DC our nation's capital.

It's just it's horrible. It's just sad and I mean, I don't have the answers for it, but but that doesn't mean that we don't stop trying to help. So we did you know food drives we volunteer for things on campus all the time anytime anybody needed help we work at the college farm help out with admissions events, you know, you name it.

I mean they did it. We had a good connection Tim Scott is a good friend of mine and I would always talk to Tim and say, hey anything going on in town that that you need us for and if it was something going on, you know, we'd help out.

So yeah, I think the, You know start staying connected in the community whether it was through the church or you know Dickinson for the longest time had a they have an office called Conserve Community Service who I don't know what it's named now. I mean the names change administratively all the time but they also think new that they could if they needed a large group of people they just called us and and we'd be there.

And, you know, the other groups they worked with I work with a group called Scroll on Key. That's seven senior men every year that are selected by their. Sensors and it's a service leadership group and so the the focus is on service and and and they they make decisions every year about what they think is important because it's seven different men every year and it's not you know, I'm not telling them what to do, but you know guiding them.

Through through service and they and they do they bring their personal experiences and through that they decide what are the things they want to focus on?

I mean, you see you also give you. It's in like you kept quite busy while you're right 15 years or so yeah. Was there anything else that stood out to you any other clubs or? Committees I was able when I first came to Dickinson there was a different structure academically and we were the people in the athletic department where classified as academic professionals and it was kind of a hybrid that there was a transition from strict faculty positions recognizing that these positions were were different, but they still had you know, this level important.

And in that in that classification, I was able to to serve on on a lot of academic committees, which I really enjoyed. I was on the academic program committee and and that was you know, really digging into the meat of academics. You know, we worked on the general ed requirements, we approved department requests for new courses.

It was just it was really interesting to see a different part of the college. And then we were reclassified again as administrators, which basically took us out of all of that stuff. So, I couldn't be on those committees anymore and I think I then leaned a little bit more towards student groups and some of them were were groups that.

I. Guests that I might have had like a natural affinity for but others were because some they needed help and somebody said to them why you go ask coach Richards, you know, he'll help you and so I think for two years I advised a fraternity didn't work really well, but I advised the fraternity fraternities at Dickinson and I think in a lot of places have have struggled to find their place and I think they have struggled to be able to articulate.

Where they fit into the mission of a college and into the strategic plan and what I said to the fraternity that I was working with was I said your main objective right now needs to be to figure out look at the strategic plan look at the mission statement and the vision of the college and you need to figure out where you fit in there and be able to articulate that and you need to have meetings with administration and show them and if you can't do that.

Then it's gonna be a short time span, we're not gonna see many fraternities around here anymore and that's what one of the things that has happened to Dickinson they're just not and some people will say the school went after them and I don't think that's true. I just think it was, you know, changing times changing cultures and and they weren't able to see where they where they fit in because it is different it's much different than it was in the 60s and 70s and the 80s.

But I I also I became involved with a group that originally was called allies it was the. LGB LGBTQ support group on campus and I I became involved because my son and his software of college told me he was gay and I was I just I knew nothing and I and I felt like I am so uneducated and unprepared I need to you know, get a little smarter did some research found some good groups online that that I was able get involved with a group called pea flag which is parents and friends of lesbians and gay.

Individuals but also found out that there was this group on campus that was really I mean I guess you would say they're closeted that they didn't want to anybody know about them because they were afraid and I thought they might have some resources and I had I sent so I sent them an email and I said, you know, do you have any books do you have a library do you have anything that you know that I can look at well, they didn't answer and I sent them another email and I sent them another email and then finally a student showed up at my office and they said why do you keep sending us emails and I said, Because I would like some help, you know, I want some some books and she said we're just we thought here some kind of weirdo he now like just trying to find out what's going on and you know, we didn't trust you and I explained to her what was going on and and so they kind of you know, they talk and they kind of drew me in and it wasn't too long after that that you know, they're in what their advisor wasn't available and they asked me to be their advisor and I was able to.

To be a different voice for them you know to be that parent voice and and to be there to help them because it's a for many kids when when they come out to their parents, it's really very very difficult and and not the result that they hope for sometimes it's very very bad result and so you know, I offered myself as a resource that you know, if you want to talk about how you're going to do this, you know, and I'd say don't do it on Thanksgiving don't do it on Christmas that's not I do this, you know, but you know, let's let's talk about this.

And I was also helping able to help them since I was here for a significant amount of time help them maneuver around the administration and you know get some things get some things done because students don't you know, they don't know how to play those games and so I think one of the most important things that a group advisor can do is be able to send them in certain directions and not send them another direction, you know, like you don't that's not who you want to talk to about this let's go over here and talk to this person we'll get this done so I my wife used to joke and just say that.

Your name's on a list and everybody knows it's the I can't say no list and I just say, you know, if I if I can do it, I will if I can't do it. Then I'm not gonna do it because I I don't want to let them down. So yeah, I mean, I tried to try to get involved with this as much as I could got real involved in PE the last five or six years.

I became the chair of the PE department, and unfortunately we lost the PE requirement. Which is sad but I think it's it's a trend. I mean, I look back at you know, when I was in school pretty much every college had a PE requirement and many colleges had swimming requirements, thank you had to pass a swimming test to graduate and that was you know, the biggest nightmare for some kids, you know, they you know can't swim and scared to death and and, But you know, we were able for a lot of years we were still able to teach PE here and I taught one of my favorite classes I started when I got here there was there wasn't a transition and skill level and teaching classes and so I created a non-swimming beginners class and so it was designed for students who could not swim at all had a fear of the water maybe or just you know, very very uncomfortable and it was the most fun class that I taught it went from day one of literally tears to you know, Most of these kids would end up that they would be able to to jump in deep water come up and tread and then swim across the the diving well at the deep end of the pool and the objective was to make them safe but to also teach them about water safety so that they don't do anything foolish and and I can you know, remember.

You know jump jumping into deep water with these with these kids and you know I'm holding their hand I'm saying we're going on three and they're saying I don't know and I'd start counting one two, and they start pulling back and I'd say don't pull back and three and I'd pull them into the pool and they're screaming, you know jumping into the pool and they come up and they're okay and they look at me and they say can we go again yep, let's go let's do it again and get them to the point then when they can do it by themselves, and I think that was those classes were some of the most satisfying things and I hear again I hear from You know students who I talk to swim 20 years ago who will send me an email and say hey, I just want to let you know, I was swimming yesterday and I thought about you, so it's kind of it's fun.

Wasn't saying it looks like you know, the that seems to be I mean, in addition to the water safety sort of you focused a lot on surprisingly on sort of pools and yeah, I have a unique my graduate degree is kind of unique and I was so happy that I was able to find this because I knew the the path that I was going down.

I had to have a graduate degree and it needed to be needed be out of the business field that needed to be more if aquatics was where I was going that's that's what it needed to be, so. I I was introduced to a program at Indiana University of Pennsylvania back in 1980 two probably I think it was the year that I was helping coach and we went to the conference championships that IUP and I met the the coach there who was also the aquatic director and he was the creator of this of this degree program that was very unique and it was a master's in sports sciences and it had several branches like specialty areas one of the special areas with psychology one was admitted.

I think administration one was athletic training or no one was sports information and one was aquatics and so this this program was a specialty program for aquatic facility management and design and there was this cohort of people that we all went through this program together and it was a big group and it was really I mean, The people who came out of that went to some of the the biggest facilities in the country have friends who went to university Texas Austin there working Emory University in Atlanta ball stayed in Indiana.

I mean all over the place they're a lot of the people who have written a lot of them the most technically oriented stuff about you know aquatics so it was it was really kind of it was really kind of special and, I think in I know for a fact that in in the end it was so beneficial to me for for my career because not just not just because.

Created you know, some opportunities, which I think it did. But because it allowed me to to manage these facilities in ways. That made it better for the athletes that I worked with. There's a lot of pools that you go to frightening. You know water quality air quality horrendous not safe in any way and and I think that pretty much everybody who swam at Dickinson and Mary Washington and Hartwick would probably say that they felt very comfortable in the environment that they lived in basically because you know, when you're an athlete you spend 20 hours a week in that environment and you can either be in a place where you can't breathe.

Or you can be in a place where you can actually perform your craft because the air quality allows you to breathe and so it was and then also I think that you know that organizational piece that anal peace of me that that doesn't accept anything that's not right and and I just I would just not ever accept or I couldn't do it.

I mean, our pools were always spotless. You know, somebody said, I remember they came in they said, oh you could eat off this floor and I said maybe you could but I wouldn't. You know bare feet, you know that kind of stuff. So I think it was you know, the Aquatics piece has been really important and I think it was beneficial for the development of all those programs and I was able to do when I was in Virginia, I did a more consulting work the more pools, you know and more growth so I didn't you know did more stuff down there and when we got to Dickinson I kind of shied away from from that as much because I had more I had to do here.

And there's only so many hours in the day and also my son was getting a little older and I think you you know, you make decisions about family and work balance and I don't think I ever did it well. I think I did too much work but you know, I tried whenever I could to make sure that I eliminated something.

It's like I you know growing up I was a good golfer. I don't go off. It's takes too much time and you know when my son was growing up I said, I can't take all day on Sunday and go golf, you know, I just I was gone all day yesterday for swimming.

I need to spend time with my family. So you make decisions and so I walked away from he did a little consulting when we're up here, but not a ton. Well, you mentioned a few people both in the community.

The first dean at Dickinson. They interviewed you I'm wondering if there was anyone else that you know really stands out in your mind as you know that you worked really well with or was really beneficial. I mean when I first got here the guy who hired me was less pulling who was the athletic director at Dickinson and he is still to this day a very good friend of mine.

Will get together once in allow for a drink. Both of his kids worked for me at the climb and I remember when we were looking at this job and I said to my wife I said, how can this not be the right thing to do the guy's name is Poolman?

You know I said we got to go. So we can't we can't knock go. He was you know a great supporter. He believed in me. He, you know did everything he could to get me the resources that I needed. We never got what we needed completely and never do but you know, you you know, you you do the best you can with what's available and he was always willing to you know to.

Fight for me and and you know help me get what whatever we needed.

I would say that when we when we first got here Karen Layman who was the pastor at what was Alice in church at that time and unfortunately she died from pancreatic cancer, but she was just a driving force in the church and the community and she was a an alum.

I think she was a Dickinson along. I pretty sure she was. So she was you know, very she was a big part of our family. Important and her husband Jay still lives in the community and I still see him and I'm actually. Going to start working with him on a.

On a committee as as the United Methodist Church comes to its struggle. It's probably going to split and so he asked me if I would be willing to to work with him and some other folks on on a committee at the church to determine which which way the church goes.

So it will be interesting to see I get the sense that you know, I don't know if it's the whole you know, a majority of church or half the church or whatever but you know half. The church wants to be inclusive and wants to be welcoming and wants to be accepting and the other half or the other whatever amount you know is still.

Not not there yet. So, I think they're going to try and see if there are ways to move more people to one side, but I I suspect they'll be a split in all the methodist churches within the next year, so. So that that's and and it was for me it was.

Honestly sad when when the church was sold to the college. We went there for 18 years and it was it just you know, it wasn't the same but things change. I'm just trying you know, just trying to think.

We just met so you know so many people so many friends it's hard to you know, kind of go down the list and it's also hard to kind of remember, you know, not not literally remember like but where do these people fall in this experience because so much has changed you know, and in 26 years, you know, like I said from sheets to you know, the Hamilton still here.

A lot in a lot of new restaurants a lot of places gone. Culture has changed dramatically, you know, the. We I got my first cell phone when we moved here and it was like as big as a shoebox, you know, it had an antenna and we got it because we were concerned about emergency so all we had was an AT&T emergency plan it was 10 minutes of talk time yet and that was it and so it was just if you got a car accident you had a phone and you could call somebody but so clearly things have changed and and the, The you know, the way people do business, you know has changed as in a restaurant this past weekend and they have little cube codes on the tables and you scan that and you get the menu and you order and it tells them what table you're at and it builds you it takes your credit card does everything and I went I have questions, you know, I'm not ready to order.

I want to I have questions, how do I ask questions so a lot of change? I definitely want to ask you about. Or the student athletes that were part of the various teams, so I'm sure there are way too many to yeah and and it's again great folks. I have you know, I'm literally I'm still in touch with with that girl that I talked to you about and another guy from heart Eisenhower yeah another another guy who I coached up there and you know, he had his he had his 60th birthday a little while ago and I called him and I said, excuse me, this has to be a mistake, how could this possibly be so but it's, It's great.

I mean the great memories of a lot of folks and they've all been part of the journey and I and I can you know, I can tell them that most of them that I remember the first time you sat down in my office, you know, and you came with your mom and dad and I can I can tell you what you were wearing.

Well, I actually had the question so you mentioned that you're still in touch with. A student or the all-American that you recruit the heart wake did you ever tell her that yeah, she never heard the story? So yes if it wasn't for her who knows where well exactly yeah exactly and so you know those those funny moments in your life were something happens and and and I think that's why you know, I don't think we should ever have regrets, you know, like somebody said, oh do you regret not doing this?

I said if I did that this would have happened and this would have happened and we probably wouldn't be sitting here you asked me that question, you know, I mean, it's because no, I mean those that's your life, that's what happened. I remember my My own mother asked me to you know, sort of talk about my career path and I was telling my wife before and I said, you know, I can I can offer advice but it seems like what led me to this current moment it's just a bunch of really random occurrences that I was just really fortunate to yeah and and you were prepared so when that random occurrence happened, you were able to you know, open that door and step through it and I think that's you know, that's the key that you know, you're you're ready and you're you.

Know you learned how to think critically and analytically and and all those things are really helpful. And I think that you know, the the other thing that maybe has been a significant part of our time here have been my dogs. I've been identified, you know, I went from being identified, you know as my son's father.

I was Paul's dad and then the dogs. I'm you know, I'm Tucker's dad. I'm. And all the kids on the team, you know, depending on when they were here they knew a different dog because I always had them over to the house. We did some events at the house and so they they knew a different dog and my current dog.

Jake started finding out that over the last maybe. Seven eight years that. Students are just inundated with with digital information and they they're very poor managers of their email. They do a terrible job and and and so had to kind of figure out ways that and and again it that was the way we had to communicate that how do we make it more effective?

And so, I mean, one of the things I did was started making emails a lot simpler one subject, that's it. You know, if I got to do multiple paragraphs, it's too long or not going to read it. But I started sending emails and they're coming from Jake. My dog and they would be they would be like a running commentary of me having a conversation with the dog but the points I'm making are points.

I want to you know get to them and I would get text messages from them, you know, like 11 o'clock at night in the library laughing out loud, they're asking me to leave because I just read your email from Jake. And but he became like this celebrity on the swim team.

You know, they all knew him and and you know, when I talked to him they say, how's Jake? About how's my wife Jake they they love it but it was and and they will tell you that you know they read the emails because they wanted to see what was what was coming next because I've got a warp sense of humor and you know, we would have these I'd have these conversations and you know want we had a conversation about people on their phones.

You know, because I was kind of a dinosaur and you know, when we have swimmates I say, it's a no phone zone. You know, you can't be on your phone during a meet. You see football player on their phone on the sideline during the football game. I don't think so.

And we would do other things where there were no no. 's But I came to realize that it was a it was a cultural societal problem because we'd be in Florida training and we go to dinner when we'd always go to some nice place like on a dock and it was just really pretty and I'd say phones off put them away, you know, this is your opportunity to actually talk to your teammates, you know get to know them a little better and they'd all turn them off and it was fine and we leave we're leaving the restaurant and they all turn their phones on and they have five messages from their parents.

Where are you? I'm calling the police. I can't find you. You didn't respond to my texts, you know. Come on. You know, really? A little bit different than when you're growing up yeah and and so and I get it things are different and people it's always say to me, you know that the students they aren't like they used to be and I'd say you're absolutely right they can't be they wouldn't I wouldn't have survived in this world it's just yeah.

I mean, they they have to be completely different because the world's different. So. I always end by asking if there's anything I should have asked or that you want to you want to say for me yeah. I don't think so. I think it's it's actually been kind it's been fun, you know for me to kind of look back and reminisce a little bit.

And I've I was introduced. I don't know if I was introduced or there was a comment made in a committee that I that I was in where they said, you know, Paul brings a very valuable historical prevent perspective to our conversations. I just looked and I said are you kidding me, you know, that's all I'm good for is historical perspective.

I know I've got a you know, an institutional memory, but I have other things you know that I can do but it's it's nice to have these conversations and it's been fun to see the changes in Carlisle and also see certain things, you know, as we keep changing. Things coming back, you know today right down on the square farmers on the square, you know that took a while for that to kind of recycle and come back again, but it's awesome well, you know, well you were talking I thought of a question so that's it was my last question but on.

You mentioned that you retired last year and I know you have you mentioned you're doing a camp next week for individuals with type 1 diabetes, so I'm wondering how is retirement seems like you're keeping getting better it's getting better because you know, we're not on lockdown as much so it's getting better and the diabetes training camp foundation is a group that I started working with about six years ago, I think and that's a Carlisle connection which is interesting and cook.

Ing this just this past year and was an icon in the Carlisle school district her and her family always sat like a one-row behind us in church so I had known and forever she was also involved in the YMCA she officiated all of our swim meets at Dickinson she was very involved in swimming and one one year I guess six or so years ago, she called me and she said Paul I have a question.

I want to ask you she said it's actually a question from Jody was her daughter and she said, Husband who was an endocrinologist founded this group called diabetes training camp, it's a multi-sport camp for adults with type 1 diabetes and they're hoping to maybe make some changes in in their swim program and and I told Jody that I thought that you would be great would you you know be interested in doing this and I said to her I said am I said, you know, this isn't fair because I've never said no do you want anything?

I said yeah I'll do it and she said well like I can get more information I said just tell Jody to call me I said, you know, I'll do it. I'm happy to help out it has been one of the most wonderful things I've ever done it's just it's made me it's made me appreciate my own life and made me understand and respect the challenges that people faced with with diabetes because you don't think about it, but it's you know, there's no break there's no vacation it's it's there every day and and I don't think about what I eat in the morning or what I drink in the morning when I get up they need to plant.

Him they need to do whatever whatever it is they have to do and they need to be ready for medical emergencies just like that anything can happen and yet these people are trying to you know, become more fit better athletes some of them, you know, training for world-class races some of them just we run a program it's called couch to 5k and it literally, you know, take somebody from you know, I haven't done anything except watch TV and eat potato chips, you know, but I want to run a 5k and we we take them through that program, so we've got a staff a medical staff.

That is brilliant absolutely amazing a counseling staff a nutritional staff coaching staff for swimming cycling and running and we get people from all over the world who come to this and our staff is is international from all over the world so it's really mean for me, you know, they ask me to do this saying could you please help us and for me, it's like this is an honor, you know that you ask me to do this.

I mean, I'm thrilled to be a part of this team and and actually do this it was tough during the Because this is a this is an important community one of the things that that becomes very evident quickly with this group is that. For a lot of these folks this is the first time they've ever met anyone else with type 1 diabetes and so they've never had a community before to ask questions and so now they they make these friends they have this online community where they can get online and say, hey, you know, when I did this this happened anybody else ever have that problem 20 people will respond like that with oh yeah I had the same thing happen, this is what I did, this is what I did and the doctors will respond he's like free medical care, you know, and we're talking world-class medical advice.

And so it's it's such a community so not being able to do camp last year was really hard so we did several virtual camps which is a challenge but it's still kept them connected and next week will be our first time back in person since the start of the the pandemic and so I when I announced my retirement it was like one week pre-pandemic.

I didn't didn't know anything about this coming, you know me but I announced my retirement and then students went on break and over break they pulled the plug on everything so it was. Kind of. You know, everything was shut down and now things are obviously open back up again traveling a little bit, you know doing some things.

In enjoying you know being out and about and hope we don't screw this up. And go backwards well again, thank you so much for coming in and talking me a little bit about sort of your background Carlisle and Cumberland County, it's been a pleasure yeah my pleasure thanks so much for having me.