Emsad Cickusic

Abstract:

On 29 April 2022, Emsad Cickusic discussed his life and experience surviving the siege of Sarajevo with students in the class Oral History of the Bosnia Diaspora in Carlisle. Emsad Cickusic was born in 1973 in Tuzla, where he spent his childhood and attended elementary school. In 1988, he applied for and attended military high school in Sarajevo. When Bosnia declared its independence in 1992, he decided to join the Bosnian Army and was stationed in Sarajevo. He discussed surviving the siege as someone serving in the Bosnian Army and made connections to what is happening in Ukraine today (Putin’s invasion of Ukraine February 2022). He is still serving in the Bosnian Army today and was stationed at the United States Army War College in Carlisle, PA at the time of this discussion and has plans to return to Bosnia in June 2022. His work at the War College is the third military training related trip to the United States; the first in 2006 at the Marshall Center in Washington D.C., and the second time in 2009 as part of the IG school.

Key Words: 

Sarajevo, Tuzla, siege of Sarajevo, military, military school, Serbia, Serbian Army, Ukraine, United States Army War College, Marshall Center, Army IG school

Time Stamp Summary:

00:01:15: Emsad begins talking about his early life

00:02:01: Emsad talks about his life and experience in Sarajevo, including the siege

00:22:24: Emsad talks about the tunnels built under the Sarajevo airport, and talks about the international criminal justice system

00:23:02: Briefly mentions the genocide at Srebrenica

00:31:55: Emsad ends his story, Professor Qualls begins the class discussion

00:32:17: Emsad talks about his visits to the United States

00:36:58: Emsad discusses nationalism in the Balkans

00:43:04: Emsad talks about his identity as a Bosniak

00:00:51 Emsad Cickusic (EC): It's my privilege to be here. Again, uh, I'm Emsad Cickusic, like citizens of Bosnia Herzegovina, like uh, uh citizens of Sarajevo, not any any rank, any, any you know title, or anything, like, you know, somebody who came from the street and open to you to talk about one certain period, uh, from 1992 to 1996. And uh, just a few basic information about me, um I was born on um 18 of October 1973 in Tuzla. It's uh (gestures towards map projected on screen) It's uh north, uh, actually northeast part of my country you can see the Tuzla city there, and, uh, I um finished my actually elementary school there and after elementary school, uh, I applied to military high school, 1992 and I, I uh, 19, 1988, actually. And uh, I, I was um, you know, um, accepted in that military school, like, it was actually good, um, student in elementary school and uh my, my wish to be there, it’s already came like, like dream. And uh, all of my life actually started in Sarajevo, from 1988, uh, and uh until 1992, I was, uh, as I said, military high school. It was at that time, former Yugoslav Army. It was Yugoslav, um, you know, Federal Republic? and Bosnia Herzegovina at that time was part of, as uh, from, uh, all other 6 republics, was part of Yugoslav Republic. Of course, in 1992 we had uh, some independence um, referendum and we became an independent states, uh first of March of uh, 1992. I, I do not want to go some details historical, you know, just, uh, explaining some political issue but uh, uh I was in situation, uh, just to decide whether should I go with um, Serbian forces of Yugoslav Army and at that time, to Serbia, or stay in my country to defend my country. You know, it was a big dilemma. Uh like can uh, we can draw a parallel now in Ukraine and some people stay in Ukraine to defend your country or left Ukraine, maybe to Russia or somewhere else, you know, just you have to be a patriot, or just escape and don't want to fight. And I of course, uh I decided to, to uh escape uh the army because we noticed that uh all that um nationalism and narrative and some project to breed Serbia was running at that time, ah, by President of Serbia, Slobodan Milošević, and uh, I decided I don't want to be that part of that country. I belong to Bosnia Herzegovina, and uh I want to be free citizens and I left that military barracks here in, in, in, in a suburb of Sarajevo. Actually, I was there, uh, fortunately, in that part of in Sarajevo, and I actually escaped to my friend, who was my classmate, at his house. It was a uh, very interesting situation when I left the barracks I had the tool bags, you know, and it was a, some ah, checkpoint in front of that barracks and I didn't know who, who is actually running that ah, military checks. It's ah, pro-Serbian/Serbia, or Bosnian patriot? you know, just, just I was in dilemma and ah, and when I came I tried to explain them and I'm here just, I, I picked up the bags you know, to my friend already left to Serbia and I am here, you know, just to have that bags, you know, to get his parents and they try to, to ask me some questions and, suddenly, I realize it was Bosnian actually, uh, patriots checks, and I told them guys, I am a student from, from the military high school, now I am on our side, the Bosnian side, I am part of your, your forces and uh actually they accepted me and provide me transportation to my classmate and in, in downtown area in Sarajevo. And suddenly all my life is changed. When you have some dreams that you be something, my dream was to be pilot, you know, to enjoy that, oh, oh (mumbling) that kind in military life and uh I was like on the street without anything without any connections. My parents couldn't pick me up because, all, uh, at that time, 1992 in March, um, ah, in March, where some uh road blocks around the Sarajevo actually, and they couldn't actually approach to Sarajevo, and that's the reason I, I stayed actually all the war in, in all period of war in Sarajevo. And uh you know, just in, in 15 days, all um, sudden attack started around the hills around the city, because the Sarajevo is like hill along, uh along a valley around the four mountains, Olympic mountains. In 1984 Sarajevo hosted, maybe you heard, for that Winter Olympics Games, and ah, that uh Serbian forces supported by uh that times, um, Serbian actually uh official forces and uh, ah, they started to dominate uh, the, uh, the city, you know, when you see somebody in the valley, you can easily using all kinds of artillery, mortars, howitzer, tanks, uh sniper, you know all such kind of, you know, explosion that, that you try to actually to control the city, and uh in the, in the, in the May 1992, actually they had the idea to split uh, the, the, the whole uh, the city Sarajevo into parts. And uh, I unfortunately I was at uh, I was leaving actually, my classmate was on that line actually close to Yugoslav Serbian military barracks at that time and it was really uh huge fighting, uh, just to try to defend uh, city and uh they tried to actually connect your [their] forces, uh across, across the city. And uh, that fighting in May 1992 was crucial actually to stop first uh divide of the city, and uh as a man, um, at that time, I had 19 years it was really ah, shocked, you know, when, when you are in situation that, that you have uh all um explosions, all out of control artillery fire around you. When I am talking now it's like, like a dream but I can see my dream now in Ukraine. We have we have, actually the same situation civilian just uh li-, like in some movies, you know you are you are walking around the street and you suddenly, you don't have half of building, you don't have, ah ah, some people killing out in the street. You know, you cannot control your emotions. Even now I am emotional and sorry, maybe maybe it's against, I'm I'm going to, to that uh phase of empathy of that period. And all my generations, we were, you know, we expected as a young man with 19 years to have, uh, you know, some our dreams to, to, to celebrate our youth and, and you know, have some connections with, you know, the, those boys , and, or others, but you we were in situation just to survive. You know, you, you, we didn't know, uh, whether I will believe to, I will be alive tomorrow, live tomorrow or, or, or you know, just to be dead. And, uh, uh, it was really tough time in, in the beginning of May, especially in the Maj, in the May 1992. And, of course, a whole uh, in that period, we, we had really poor ah, organization or related to our defend and everything, without any serious military organization we didn't expect actually that such kind of violence, you know, and all citizens of Sarajevo, they were shocked and any official, uh, I would say, uh, military defense or defender were actually police forces, regular police forces, they had some ah, limited number of weapons and a few vehicles you know, and it easily you can check in, in on the web, there is some, some, a lot of evidence there. And uh, as a defenders, uh patriots, you know, we cannot now compare Ukraine forces, they have everything, all support, actually. We were in a situation without any support. We were uh fighting in, in sport shoes, in T-shirt, you know in civilian clothes just to try to stop our forces, our Serbian forces and supported by Serbian uh Yugoslav Army, that time to came into the city and slay the city, you know, using all the blocks and everything. And of course, ah, you, you, you, during that time, I, I saw so many civilian casualties, I saw so many I will say urbicide, you know, massive destroying of, of, of civilian buildings and ah, they, at the beginning they tried to destroy all communication assets, ah, TV stations, you know, just to have control, information control around, uh, city and that that area. Ah for, for better understanding, uh, when you have normal life you have normal supplies everything, uh,  electricity, gas, food, and everything, suddenly in 24 hours you, you, you are in situation that you don't have anything, you know, and people in, in few in one month actually they, they, uh, spent all some supplies and it was really struggle how to get some food, uh, and without any serious humanitarian assistance from at that time UN, and other international support. It was really struggle, you know, and people try to, to use some open areas, you know, just, just to see that some vegetables and everything, to have something to eat, you know, and it was really it was really tough period. Uh, maybe in, uh, that year 1992, we, we had a limited number of humanitarian assistance, you know, just to, to crucial parts of, of the city, but it was definitely an unsufficient and it was starving time I would say. We, everybody lost, you know, at least 5 to 10 kilos and maybe and more, you know, without any, any serious humanitarian uh, support from any organizations. And, ah, 1993 it was really even worse years I would say. At that time we had ah, ah, four uh, French battalion inside Sarajevo, they control airport area and, actually they establish UN establish a little bit humanitarian you know, assistance, providing some limited ah food for, for citizens but, ah, you know, working with them, ah I, I, I spoke with them as a part of my job you know, just to, to explain what's going on and uh, approach really surprised me. You know, they, ah, I had always impression they cannot understand what was going on, you know and uh, my, my thoughts it's really, was you know, ah... confused, you know, how can I explain myself that I'm living in Europe,  I'm, I'm 30 minutes flights from Vienna, I'm one, one hour flights from Munich, and you know from one hour flight, 40 minutes flights from Rome, and we have here the killing civilians killing this one, you know, one state, independent states. I, I couldn't understand that issue. You know, I'm not somewhere far away in the middle of the Pacific in the ocean, or where it's even harder to get some information. We were in situation, to live in Europe, actual Southeast Europe. (Emsad gestures at map on projector) It's all it's very, very close here. And you see on the map, you know, and uh, and you, at that time, you don't have enough support from all European countries. You know, ah, maybe president of Zelensky today in Ukraine ask the same question yourself, but uh when I compare situation for him and for, for our side, uh, they have, for example, now more support ah, comparing to some military assets, intelligence assets, you know, information and everything. At that time, we, as I said, we didn't have any support from, from anybody. And even worse, we had UN embargo of weapons, you know, we didn't have, can you imagine that situation that you, you declare, you got independent states or regular states and UN, you know, declare a UN embargo and some opposite opposing forces, they have support from Serbia or elements at that time, Yugoslav former Army had all assets and they supported and they have everything, and you were like civilian against regular army and protect your city and your country? It was mission impossible. And ah, it's really a war, it's really interesting for a military way how we defend our, our city, but I'm really proud that I was part of, of that uh defender of, of Sarajevo. As I said, 1993, that year was really terrible and we had additional opposing for, opposing force from Croatian side and around, uh, around Sarajevo were some Croatian places and they actually cooperated with Serbian forces. And ah, it was really even harder for us, because we accepted, ex, expected some uh more support from, from all, all ethnic group in our countries and ah, you know, some ah, historical reason and have historical project mainly from Serbia that they want to have Greater Serbia and divide my country between Milosevic and Franjo Tuđman, as a president at that time of Croatia. They try actually, they have historical deal to divide my country on the, on the half, was even harder for us. Fortunately, 1994 we had support from United States, and we establish that agreement with Croatian side and we unified our defense and it, it help us to have more productive defense in all countries, even in in Sarajevo. 1994, that year, as I said, we had agreement with Croatian side and we finally had ah more supplies, even for food and everything. But anyway, it was really hard, you know, without any continuously electricity, some, some heating system, food and water, you know, trying to survive ah, day by day, you know, and many, many, many people killed in just providing, trying to provide that basic needs. You can read and I witnessed several times people waiting in line to have uh, you know, some, some, some items to, to get water to put water in some plastic, you know, box and everything and they, they were shot by, by sniper or just using mortars and a lot of people killed. The same situation just was uh, waiting in line for food. You know, ah, just walking uh, through the city you know that people try to have, to have a, civilians tried to have a regular job, you know, just try to earn some, some money at that time, money I would say. I was a non-smoker and I had cigarettes. Uh, we had some factory who is producing cigarettes and usually we received the cigarettes you know just from time to time, and the cigarettes were crucial item just to providing the exchanging and providing the food, you know that's, that's ah, um one unique situation. And uh using that, we used to say "a road of life," that was several on an usual road around the buildings around the some certain area trying to avoid some you know, position where we have a Serbian forces around the city in order to try to reach that places, and there is always in my memories, now when I drive into my city, I can recognize some uh, protection we used to say put some big clothes in Summer street just that we are aware that sniper cannot see our walking on the street. You know, it was uh, amazing, uh, that unexplained I would say that sniper, uh, uh, hit our kids. 11,601 kids that were killed in Sarajevo and every 10 kids here were killed by sniper and overall, um sorry, 1,601 kids, and overall 11,600 citizens of Sarajevo were killed during our, our period. And most of them they are actually killed by, by more using sniper, mortars, howitzer, ah, targeting all all urban area, you know without any reason, targeting hospital, targeting firing points [?] uh targeting other buildings, uh, humanitarian center. You know, we, we cannot explain that issue you know without any rules. And as a, as a liaison officer who had possibility to speak with some UN observers in Sarajevo, I try to, to, to always push them, look at this guys, what's going on? Can you, can you do something? People killing the civilians, people killing, you know, all persons' kids, you know, and we had several place, places kid plays in, in park or football, soccer and they were shot by sniper even sniper, or some howitzer.

And also marketplaces, Markale maybe you heard for that, places twice a day, they were hit by howitzer, and uh, a lot of people killed there. It's uh, first time, second time it's 60, 60 people were just massacred you know, without head, without legs, um, hands and you know, just slaughtery, big slaughtery. We could not understand that. You know, and I was situation just to pass maybe one minute ago, and you saw somebody screaming behind you and you know, you already know that that was really you know, some, some terrible situation, and happening it all the time, I'm looking you and maybe you are, you are also 19-20, uh, just I am looking through your eyes, how you were, how you will be in that situation. Fortunately, yeah, that, that will not happen. And, of course in 1995, we, we, we build up our defenders uh, uh, and we were successful more in defending our city. But even, even that time we didn't have any military serious compatibility because all roads, main supplies around the city were blocked by Serbian forces. Croatian sides supported us, but uh, as you know, it was limited the number of, of the weapons and applying embargo, it was illegal some roads that we tried to get some, some weapons for defending you know, and it was a really interesting issue, we build the tunnel under the, the airport of Sarajevo, uh hopefully you will visit my country in future and you will see that place, and we use that,` you know just they built several months that tunnel, are and we actually connected the free territory with Siege of Sarajevo, Capitol, you know, and we had more supplies related to food and some, some for defender, defenders, some assets that we use that we have ammunition, actually we didn't have any, any, any serious supplies in that in that field. And of course, um, after the genocide in Srebrenica it, it was sudden decision by uh, um, the US and the NATO to finally stop the war in my country. And it has happened, but, uh I would say we, we paid a, a really bi-, terrible price, having ethnic cleansing, having genocide. My country, you know, we lost um, the two, three generations of people. Uh, especially I know in Sarajevo, um, I had a lot of friends, you know, we had a really great gathering during the, before the war actually as a military student in, in high school, we had a great gathering along the city in some cafe you know, without any problem with ethnicity. Nobody mentioned that. And even today Sarajevo is famous for, for that. Because Sarajevo I will say is, is a European, Jerusalem. We are mix of multiethnic society, we are we are pro, pro-culture society. We like to share, share our openness, we like to share our, our identity with other people. And ah, we have a population, a Jewish population, we have a Gypsy population, we have another eastern uh, um some minority from some, some places, even from Ukraine in in my country, and is not a big issue to be three major ethnicity in Bosnia, Croatian, or Serbia. We respect all others and that Sarajevo is even today. Ah, even today, we have a very, very famous Sarajevo Film Festival and I suggested to your professor, August is best time maybe, that you can visit my country and you will see that unity, that multi-cultural environment that people actually gathering and sharing your experience. We, even today, I'm working with a lot of people who are not Bosniak, I am working with Croatian or Serbian. I do not have any hate because I have a problem with some regime who actually who supported, who conducted that. I, I, we have so many tourists in Sarajevo today who is coming actually from uh, Serbia. This is ordinary people who respect you know who understand that issue. We cannot generalize, you know and saying all the Serbians are the same. It's a terrible mistake. We have problem with some authoritarian regime, and International Criminal Court in Hague made some decision and clearly stated and made some verdicts and against the Radovan Karadžić, Ratko Mladić, [Stanislav Galić] Dragomir Milošević, actually who is responsible for seizure of Sarajevo, killing the civilians in Sarajevo. Of course, we need more verdicts because behind them there is you know subordinate who conducted that uh, operation against civilians. We, we understand military rules, but you cannot use military force against the civilian, killing kids on the playground, killing the kids, killing the kids in the street, and all other civilians, you know, trying to get some food, trying to get some water and some like that. And ah, as a part of that, believe me, my, my war period, uh, uh, I had job really busy and I walked through the city without any difficulty. It was really a long road of life, as I said, and you never know when you start when you get up early, and you have some obligations to go somewhere for example now in Mechanicsburg, would just walking to get there and you whether you will survive or not. You, your family are there. And it was as I said like, like a dream today, you know, and ah, um, I recognized the same dream that Ukraine's dreaming, ah, dreaming and seeing the same uh, situation right now. And ah, maybe we always can do more, for sure. In our case, European state, states failed. We were really disappointed in reaction in European states, in any European states because we are their, we are their neighbor and they do not care for that. It was some individuals who supported us but any government, we were really disappointed with. And we had actually second genocide you know. Somebody should always ask them why we had genocide after genocide, you know, and you could see even today how some countries only believe our own national interests, do not care for neighbors, do not care for European liberal you know, institutions, and liberal society. They are actually connected with some authoritarian regime, and we can, we can discuss that, in discussion part. And uh, as I said, that war period you know, I always, always asking myself, why? Why we deserve that? Why, why humans actually deserve that you are killing each other? We are human, we do respect, we are we I maybe at that time, most of my classmate and from military high school they went to Serbia. But I, uh, during the during the war period, I, I saw so many soldiers coming actually from Serbia in my country and always around the Sarajevo, I always ask myself, why are they there? Why are they here? What's the goal? You know, they have own state, they do not belong here. They should belong to their countries. This is my country, and we have enough space. We are 3.5 million you know, people in huge states. We have enough space for everybody. Even today we have actually the same problem is some narrative nationalism and, narrative yeah, we can discuss later on. Just uh, as I mentioned, or period for me ah, was unique, uh, and I'm proud that I share that experience with my citizens and uh, to def, to defend Sarajevo, to have the daily life uh, with them. Most of them, ah, most of time we were starving, you know without enough food. Even some food that we receive, it was you know, some cans ah, 50 years old. You know, it was some ah, always remind us some somebody cleaning your storage place, you know, and we used to say Icar [Icar Canned Beef Monument] and have that monument in Sarajevo, from European Union at that time, supplying us but ah, you know, using that, that food and everything could have impact on your health. And fortunately, I'm still alive, you know (laughing), I don't have any issue but when you are eating and starving and everything, you know, of course you will have some implications but yeah, you know, as I said, um our life should go on and ah, we try to even to have today to have modern society to do more reform. And I always telling, I believe in a young generation, I believe in young people, you know, just to support idea to fight for idea for fight for, for common life, you know, fight for unity. You know, we are, we are belonging, belonging uh, to the earth, we are, we are world citizens, and I believe me I am here in Carlisle, but I'm feeling that I am part of your society and I am talking with you but I am sharing with you ideas without any, any, any any, any, any problem, you know, I am part of, I am your buddy, I am your friend, you know, and any help, if you if you need for me, I can help you. And I will stop right now, just to having your mind timing and you know, just to have some questions. You know, I mentioned I know maybe a lot of things some details may be hard for you to understand, but you know, just if you want something to clarify, I can share with you. Thank you.

00:31:55 KQ: Thank you very much. All of you should have some questions, hopefully, so just uh, raise your hand and he'll call on you.

EC: Without raising, yeah, we just, we can discuss, you know and just...

00:32:09 Michael Wymer (MW): Yeah, I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about your first experience coming to America and what that was like, um, kind of experience of American culture, um for the first time?

00:32:17 EC: Actually, I am here ummm, ah, third time, this is my third time. Uh, the first time I was here as an as a student of Marshall Center from Europe, and [unclear], it was great project, actually even today, they are a great project, and they are collecting actually all the nations in Marshall Center, and I, I visited as a part of a center that Washington DC 2006, and second time I was here 2009 as a part of IG school here in United States and it was really a unique opportunity to see your system, and the third time I'm here at um, Army War College. And uh, many people, um, I want to add when you mentioned US, why the United States I discussed with a lot of friends can better understand the situation in my country? Maybe then even today European states, because your culture, your society is diversity is the base. You know, you have so many nations here you have so many mix of cultures from many, many parts of the world. And nobody care actually who is coming from but care from your knowledge, for your responsibility, for your, you know, helping your society in your work, and that is the crucial. And in my country, United States actually recognize that issue and do not care for uh, some ethnic based problem issue. They, they care for actually the, the clear situation to have peace, to have stopped the war. And that time Madeline Albright. who’s passed away a few days ago, it was uh, funeral, it's a great woman. And uh, at that time, President Clinton uh, um, was running US administration as the president. They were actually aware of situation in my country and finally, it was a little bit late, but they decided in 1995 to have you know, just significant steps ahead and, and stop the war. But your approach, your values, national values are the key. And uh, I believe in European countries they have that the same values uh, for liberal democracy values, but European countries they are unfortunately solely divided in their approach, they are driven by their national interests, and they do have they do have they, they are not each of country capable to solve some problems, for example, in my country, Germany cannot alone ah, support and so probably my country without support of European Union, but we have now a problem in European Union they, they have so many influence from Russian side. Some country unfortunately, they are in line with some, with aggressor from, from the east, from Putin, and they are actually dealing with some nationalism narrative and ah, they probably they have problem with corruption and you know, they are they have some deals with that with Russian side, and they are actually supporting a policy in Europe. And that's the reason that the Europe is even today, it's divided and they don't have strong approach towards, for example, in my country, but fortunately, we have a, in every crisis situation, we have some opportunity like in Ukraine, and Europe for European Union maybe is, is unfortunately, it's war. But for European is chance for unity. You know, they have now common approach and they are clearly stated against the Russia, you know, before their aggression against that Ukraine, it was a really bad situation that you have few, to have few, few European countries more aligned with the Russian position than European posti-, position it was you know, ah, ah unbelievable situation but they tried to actually to have a weaken, to weaken European institutions, especially in my neighbor, neighborhood, I, you know, maybe your formula for that leader, but uh, it's a shame for them.

00:36:48 Virginia Smith (VS): Um, did you mention something about like people being driven to sort of nationalism and authoritarianism in response to the lack of support from neighboring countries? Could you say a little more about that, maybe?

00:36:58 EC: Yeah, uh, we, we can actually recognize security vacuum in western Balkan, most of the countries security Balkan, are member of the EU and NATO, and ah, still Bosnia Herzegovina, Montenegro, North Macedonia, Albania, and Kosovo, and Serbia, we are not European Union. We are actually on the way to be part of European Europe. We are, we are, we are living in Europe, we are part geographical in Europe, but we are 20-25 years we are still waiting, you know just to be uh part of that. But there is a re, there is a reason why we are so long waiting for that. First of all, I will go to corruption issue. We have unfortunately some regime in countries, uh, even in my country who are, who are actually using that nationalism narrative supported by Russia. And uh, Russia actually using that nationalism narrative in Serbia. First of all, they are they are actually their main actor in our Western Balkans. They are using them to undermine, actually uh, the European Union approvement in that southeast region, to undermine NATO actually enral-, enlargement in our region, because uh, we are still, we are trying to be part of NATO Bosnia-Herzegovina, Montenegro is already there. Croatia is already there. North Macedonia is already, Albania is there, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Kosovo. They are, we are on the way to be part of NATO, but Serbia declared to be neutral, but they declared to be neutral, but they are still receiving all cooperation with Russia. They have a really good cooperation and uh, Russia establish uh, information campaign uh, assets in Serbia like Sputnik around like Russia today. And they are using that assets actually information national uh, instrument of power to share their narrative and they are using according to their strategy actually, the rational world, we have in Serbia the same narrative serve the world you know the same actually narrative like 1992, they, we had at that time great Serbia, now we have narrative Serbian world,  it means that they have still aspiration you know, just to connect some territory where there some Orthodox Slavic Serbian population living, as you know in Serbia is most of them, then is a Serbian Slavic population. And 30 percentish in my country is also Serbian population, and also in Montenegro, and some, some percent in North Macedonia and also, of course, Kosovo, they have still a dream to have to live in one state. It's a crazy situation. You know, it's not normal. We are, we are all living, as I said, in Europe, we should be part of European Union. We are small nations, we have few milin-, millions of populations, you know, we cannot compare yourself like India, like China, like you know, just everybody should overcome that issue nationalism narrative and have uh, serious um, reform in your society related to anti-corruption effort, because some politicians they are really good in using that nationalism narrative, actually just saying always hey, uh look at this, uh, they trying to have dominance over you, they will try to help clear Muslim state in Bosnia-Herzegovina, you know, even don't mention in Bosniak as a nation, you know, just using Muslim, Muslim uh, expression, you know, and they are living very good in that nationalism narrative because is behind that they are controlling, they are actually always uh, ah winner in elections and they control all government and all you know boards, they can actually withdraw money from, from municipalities, municipalities from cities from you know, government issue projects. This is the small percentage of people who was really manipulated actually that nationalism for their purpose. And your government recognized that issue and President Biden stated that issue about the corruption is really important issue, not only in my region and other parts, and of course, China, Russia, and there are authorization states they do not do a do not like any transparency, you know, just in providing data that resources and some European, European countries such Hungaria they have really good cooperation with the, with Russia because, you know, dealing with them without, without any clear, you know, transparency the, the gas you know, we have all been now who is against many of European decisions for better condition in European Union, even in NATO uh, Hungary stopped some issue which, which, which is which is understandable. You know, we cannot believe that, that we have a member of NATO who spoke in some NATO initiative, but that's, that's the issue of that narrative, you know, and narrative of action behind that narrative is corruption. Hopefully, I answered your question.

00:42:53 Mia Romano (MR): Hi, um thank you. Um, would be able to talk more about like your relationship to Islam and how that might have changed if it did, because of the war, or like since then?

00:43:04 EC: Uh, thank you for the question. Um, as you know, in Bosnia-Herzegovina most of the population living there is now it's a Bosniak, it's a Muslim population. So, we have name for that is Bosniak. We have a 52 percent approximately 52 percent, 33 are Orthodox Serbian, and you have the 13 to 17 and Croatian and the rest of these are minority. And uh, as an Islamic society as belong to Islam in Bosnia Herzegovina, we can say that we are maybe the best example in the world is not it's not something that I want to raise this too much about that. We are as a European, we have a very strong Islamic association on the state level, we have an own Bosnian on race, who actually very, who is actually very knowledgeable person who has a lot of academic works and who is capable to organize Islamic life in our country on certain roads. We cannot leave. We had some problems with some moments, you know, coming from as all other countries from uh, Arabic some states, but we uh, had some rule of, rule of, code of conduct and everything and uh, we clearly stated to them we cannot accept any, any issue that you try it that you're trying now to change your way of, for example, praying, and everything like I know if you are Muslim and you are maybe familiar more, more with that from other countries from Arabic. We are Hanafi Muslim, we belong to that. And we have our Bosnian role of connecting to our Islamic society and we are really proud of that. Even in all um, part of the world, even here in United States, we are that uh, uh, mosque, Masjid, they are following the instruction by Bosnian race and with open transparent process. And our, our Islamic society is always against any radicalism any, any extremism, and terrorism activities. We had a few cases in my country, you know, some, some people were, were misused and, but it was comparable in a few cases compared to other countries. But after that, we had serious reaction, you know, serious statement, our government and all our Islamic leaders who are against them, because according to Quran, maybe you're familiar, it's clearly stated, if you kill any one innocent man, it's like you're doing all of the population. And I'm really proud that we have a really open Islamic society that we are willing to share to share ou-, our knowledge, you know, to, to accept all other cultures. In Sarajevo, you have, in 100 meters, you have a mosque, we have a Christian church, you have Orthodox Church, we, we have synagogue, and we have, you know, all others society and we are proud of that. This is the reason that we are talking like I said, we are a European Jerusalem. You know, we are, it, it uh, lasted centuries. You know, we lasted centuries, since 12th, 12th centuries. We had that from actually, we, we were under Ottoman Empire, from 14 to, to 18 century, and after that, in that Empire from Austrian-Hungarian, and all the time, we kept our identity, we had good cooperation with our neighbors, Islamic society cooperated actually with Christian with some representatives, and they build the church and everything. Even today in my country, I know in my city in Sarajevo, Munich, our municipality is majority Bosniak, Muslim but we are always support supported building some churches in our society. We are proud that, during the Ramadan during the Easter, every people inviting each other. Even in my job I was working in by Bari Luca, six years, last six years is a northern part of the city, most of that (gesturing to map) here we can see here, and it's in the north-north part. And it's the most of them a Serbian Orthodox population living there. But we are sharing our culture, we are inviting them you know, and trying to have a better understanding. But what we are waiting, we are waiting Mar-, Martin Luther King actually from Serbian population, somebody who will accept, you know, some historical facts, historical verdicts against for crimes to say okay, that's part of history, did some bad things and we are against them, against that. We need to have reconciliation, you know, we need that face, you know, but we have problem now with, with some elements of politicians who are controlling media, actually, and still today they are they are some, they are spreading this information, you know, speak that nationalism narrative against others, but uh, fortunately we have some uh, more, more individuals, even in Bari Luca, I met them you know, who are supporting actually normal society open society that we can live in one state without any, any problem. That's, that's the key not only from Bosnia Herzegovina, for for all countries in the world I would say.

00:49:04 KQ: That's wonderful. Unfortunately, we're out of time, but we could go on forever, listen to your stories. But this this is ideal in so many ways, thank you, Emsad. Because when you're fighting for your city and your life, it was this age.

EC: Yes.

KQ: Right? And I was comfortably starting graduate school, right? And so, this story helps us to get that empathy of what it was like at our ages, to experience something horrific, uh, in that way and to come and share that with us, we're really appreciative. So, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

(clapping)