Don D. Dillon

Interview of Don D. Dillon for the Elizabeth V. and George F. Gardner Digital Library of the Cumberland County Historical Society. Dillon discusses growing up in Elkhart, Indiana before joining the military and living in Camp Hill, Pennsylvania. Dillon recounts how he came to carve traditional Springerle cookie molds, become a Hot Air Ballon guide, and how he became a world champion disc golfer.

Recipes shared by Don D. Dillon:

Springerle Cookies

This recipe from Germany is for the well known German Anise Cakes which are stamped with a wooden mold into quaint little designs and figures.

4 large eggs
4 cups confectioners sugar
4 cups cake flour
1 tsp. baking powder
1 tsp. anise extract or 4 Tbs. anise seed

Beat eggs till light, gradually add sugar and continue beating at a high speed until batter is thick and lemon colored. Add anise. Sift flour and baking powder and blend with egg mixture at a low speed. Cover bowl with wax paper or foil and let stand 15 minutes so dough is easier to work with. Divide into third. On lightly floured surface roll dough to 8” square ¼ thick. Let rest 1 minute. Flour mold and press design, cut around design and place cookie on greased cookie sheet. Cover with a towel all night (or make sure that cookies sit at least 12 hours before baking). Brush off excess flour from the cookies. Bake 12 minutes at 325 degrees. Cookies will brown on bottom, but not on top as they bake. Cookies will rise, but not spread during baking. Store cookies in a tight container, place a cut apple in the jar if the cookies become too hard. Lemon or almond flavoring could be substituted for anise. After cookies have cooled the design can be painted with food coloring and a fine brush. By punching a hole a the top of each cookie before they are baked, one can insert a colorful ribbon and hang them on the Christmas tree as traditionally done.

Speculaas

3 cups flour
1/4 tsp. salt
1 tsp. nutmeg
1 1/2 cups brown sugar
1/4 tsp. baking powder
3 tsp. cinnamon
1 1/2 cups butter
1 tsp. cloves
slivered almonds
milk as needed - about 6 tbs.

To make speculaas, knead all ingredients, except the almonds, into a ball. Sprinkle flour in the wooden mold. Press a part of dough into the mold (refrigerate remaining dough). Cut extra dough away with a string held in both hands and drawing from the top to the bottom of the board or cut extra dough away with a sharp knife. Holding mold at one end, knock dough out onto a greased cookie sheet. The figures will fall out (if they don’t the mold should have been floured more or too much milk was used). Add almonds to make eyes, nose, buttons, etc. Bake in a moderate oven – 350 degrees for 15 minutes until brown. If the oven is too hot, the figures will rise too much, and the details will blur.

The following is a machine generated transcript using the Google Recorder App and should not be cited from due to errors in the automated transcription process:

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My name is Blair Williams. I'm here today on March 29th 2023, with Don Dillon here, at the Cumberland County Historical Society. We're in the basement today, so you should have some fun. Let's go do it. So, Don, the first question I would like to ask is, where are you from Wellford, Camp Hill, I've lived in Camp Hill at 1973, okay?

But originally, from Elkhart, Indiana, long time ago, and what was it? Well, what was it like growing up in Elkhart, Indiana. Well and board in 1935 in Elkhart. Indiana and I left Elkhart in 1958. After graduating from college 50,000 people, small towns, small community. It had a big factory there.

CG cons musical instrument and miles laboratory with one of the vitamins and that sort of thing. So it had some industry in it but you didn't lock your doors at night. Kids, went to school and if some girl got pregnant wasn't married, oh that's that's so good. Religious evenly really just different denominations.

Some rich people, it's important people. But I would say it was pretty typical midwest town. It wasn't like from the Far East or nothing for the Eastern United States or the Western United States to two different areas. So it was a good town to come up in and question.

I was like to ask is what were your parents names. Yeah, my father's name was Oscar and he was a former two woodworking departments in the Fujicons. Bad instrument place. My mother's name was Virginia and they divorced when I was in grade school, okay, and did you end up living with your grandparents, or no?

I, my father was not particularly the best person. My mother left him, and she didn't have any place to go. Really. But so I was like, with my father and my, father dropped me off at my grandmother's house during the day. Well, he went to work and picked me up at the end of the day and then we'd go up into a rented, college and lower Michigan.

Okay. It was it taught me that there's a better family life, elsewhere that there's a better educational system elsewhere. Nobody, my family going to college, or economically have been very well-off and I looked at some of the people and saw how other kids and so their families coming to sports and who's mine.

They didn't come and it's just gave me a goal to set for myself and to work for it. Well, I know you end up with the long military career. But was there a step before that? Did you go to college or did you go, right? Okay. Went to Purdue University.

I don't see that very loud in Pennsylvania on, not from Pennsylvania. So, I graduated aeronautical engineer. Some of the fact, my fraternity brother was Roger, Chaffee. He was one of the astronauts to get blown up and in the space there. So it was a technical school. If it was it, it's agricultural school to home at school.

My wife met I met my wife there. She was a home that major and it was. It's a good school. Yeah, not downgrading Penn State to understand. You can downgrade Penn State. All you want to miss. Okay, so you graduated from Purdue University with the aeronautics degree. Did you immediately find yourself going into the military or well like DC in in school?

Because you get to pay for that? So they don't pay for the education. And if you graduate from in ROTC, then you you go into military, go through the training of the second lieutenant. Fortunately, I graduated as a distinguished military student which gave me some advantages later on in the army and I graduated in June and we got married in February and I went in reporter tractive duty in February.

I lost all my freedom and February of 1958. Okay. I started a wonderful life I before I we get too far off topic. What was your wife's name here? Girl. Hey, you did was your name, okay? Her father was a county agent, in Winchester Indiana, so he's counted on the staff of Purdue but he was responsible for helping the all the farmers in his county very respected family.

And she had three, two sisters and a brother and they did well, one sister married a county judge. Well, you wasn't a judgment, she married anyway. He also had an association with the UN right away. There was a family that I was going to be the competing with Now.

I did. So in February of 58 you you entered act or yes, active duty. So what was that experience? Like. Well, because this would have been post. Korea is that right? Yeah. Well, and but previous not. Yeah, yeah, no one in my family, in the Dillon, family had reached two of them had been in the military, drafted in the military for World War two.

So I didn't really have any expectations of what what to expect is a win in, and I figured, I was going in for two years. After graduating from college, I had a couple of job offers one from Boeing in Seattle and another one from a packaging firm that I was interested in.

So, I I didn't have, I had two jobs waiting. I, oh, well, plus I did go to work for the national bank in Detroit, from the time of graduated until February and I could go back to there. The branch manager. I didn't want to look forward to that and so I got in the in the army and went through a basic training course and then we I was shipped off to we were married of course and that was new experience.

Also what a way to start a life. Yeah, and I was stationed to sent to Frank welted to Germany first and my wife couldn't accompany me at the time because of housing availability. And I was in Germany for just a couple of months and kept transferred to France where the the officer there, but broken these legs skiing and they need to replace NATO airbase shadow, small, small outfit and that I came into work and the Germany and a colonel called me in and said, done, how do you like French fries?

Well, you have fine good next week, you report to France. But at any rate, why? Finally joined me and from there on, we were three years in Europe, is a honeymoon. Yeah, but pretty good. So I know and our previous conversations you mentioned. You are transferred to the new Cumberland Army, Depot and 73.

Yeah, so that would have been about 15 years after I guess you entered active service. Was that sort of the end of your the end of the line in your military service or it was there. Something else after that? No, that was that was the end of it. I had.

We included my wife. Yeah, had two tours and Europe to include France to include Germany tour Cape Canaveral during Afton out program during Albuquerque. New Mexico for the underground. Testing of nuclear testing at Las Vegas outside of Las Vegas. The army sent me back to the Knoxville from a masters.

I'll head forward betting. I had a rifle company that was we were locked and loaded a speech, meaning that we all the equipment loaded on trucks, we were quarantine on the on the base. Couldn't go home. Just say goodbye to the wife and that was during the missile crisis in Cuba.

Okay. Yeah. But Kennedy finally won and they turned to Russian ships around and I could go home. It was also involved in some great riots and and Mississippi, but then using France, I was involved with the right evacuation of Belgium refugees from the Belgium Congo at the time that they had reached problem.

And these poor folks were showing up and shattered in France because the military picked them up and brought them in and they were in a white shorts. It is the middle of the night called, all they had was what they've carried The army was providing, sea reactions to go back to four supporting the people that were still there.

So there were a lot of interesting, interesting things. Well, I should ask say, you signed up for two years, you obviously served more than two years 22. What? What made you stick around? Interesting, question. In Germany. First experimental, the traveling, the, the sets of belonging the sense of I have something important.

I'm part of something important, put it that way, and kernel called me and with a major, and they sat me down and said, done at that time, because of the way, the things worked, I was a reserve officer but because I was a distinguished military student. I had the option to becoming a regular officer and these this girl in the major talked into it.

And so I signed up for regular, I mean that then presented the career, okay. And there a lot of opportunities to do and it was entirely different life than my family, or the life had been invited in. And I just found a challenging and to be an officer and to have command of people to be responsible for some particular, kind of actions or so, was was interesting.

And the long more stayed in, of course, the more I liked it and when I was transferred from new Cumberland and the Cape Canaveral to Fort Benning, I was then introduced to the infantry and had my own rifle company. And I went to Ranger school, went to airborne school so that I could stand up to anybody.

I was transportation core, and if you're transportation core in a combat arms, while you look down the point, I mean, you know, not a fighting soldier, You're just a truck driver. Well I said, no, that's not what I am. So anyway, challenges opportunities? Well, I don't know if this question is actually relevant, but one of the reasons why I have you in here today is to talk about your wood carving.

And I'm wondering and we have some here in the box. Let's just get one out. Did you pick that up during your tour in Europe? Or I would interested in wood from the beginning? Because my father had these two wood, that's right. Yeah. Apartment in these, they made. Yeah.

Anyway, the cases for the instruments. So I was introduced to some lumber yards and stuff and then the time went on though. I didn't know anything about carving. I just put putting things together. Mm-hmm. In Germany. The my wife came home, one day with a what they called to Springley.

Couple something like this. And I said, well what what is that? She's well, that's the making cookie. You girl out the dough and you press the mode down in there. You you get a raised figure on there and so she bought one or two and some of her friends had too.

I said, well, I can do that now. I in the main time in carving, there's carving in the ground, like a statue. There's relief carving that's where the figure sticks out of the car, out of the wood. And I'd done some of that. This is called antaglio carving where they design is in the wood.

It's a negative, press it into the dough, and this makes a positive and I said, I can do that. So I started carving a few of those using the German designs and we sent some home for Christmas a couple years. Well, they got tired of that, that's how often do you do that.

But one of her sisters, took it to a tourist shop in Vermont and showed it to the manager that Teresa. And he said, well does he sell these? Well is an officer I couldn't have an outside job. My wife wouldn't supposed to work either so she that's interesting and we were not too far from having to become back to the States.

So that's where it started. I'm self-taught I did go down and and set with some German wood carvers and over Amiga which was a big carving center and about sharpening the gouaches and what kind of guns to use a technical bit. And I thought my gallbladder was sharp enough and I showed them to this German meister and he looked at his act squats, two dolls.

So anyway, sorry. I learned a little bit about that what, to a German factory and bought. It was about 200, 300 gouges. And there's a main reason for that and just started to do it. So, when we moved here to New Cumberland in 1973, I was already carving this, these short springly cookie moles, and there's single ones like this.

With Malta one, multiple ones like that and then they're larger ones like this. And they're all the same thing. You press it into the dough, but we learned that, well, we, we wanted himself with our well, here is something different to do and I can do it in the basement and it doesn't, it doesn't affect the military career.

And I was not too far from retirement at the time and we were able to get into. I think it was the last Pennsylvania Folk Festival that was rated by national geographic as one of the two, most best full festivals in the United States. It was a takeoff from the German Dutch people and but they were ending the committee in all grown old and they were counted.

We were fortunate enough to get in to their last one that Hershey in the, in the giant state, not in the joint and in the stadium at the time. Yeah. And we had a great reception. Well these are yeah the we know what German there was a spreadingly cookie.

Is paycheck on us and shortbread and the designs were somewhat German then I started to bring in the Pennsylvania Dutch designs, the well the pineapple and yeah. And and if and some other designs that we picked up and I found that we were kind of unique and in fact, one person came up to my wife and said, you don't know what you have here but did she mean by that?

Well, when the Germans came to Philadelphia, the German carvers German bakers, and all them, they brought the tradition with them. The Carver started dying out and baking. The spring sprinkly cookie is a labor intensive job, it's involved. Something that bakers didn't want to do and the German bakers died down.

So the tradition of the Springer cookies which originally were used at Christmas time. It kids would get candy, cookies, hang hanging stuff, the cookies on the tree and they cookies off and during festival time or they'd have big spreadily moles and cookies and so that was brought here. But so what this woman was telling me my wife, when she said, you don't know what you have here, it was kind of a new.

No, we're what word am I thinking of like a resurrection? Resurrection, thank you of a tradition that was German to begin with and we didn't realize that. So we started doing craft shows and my wife could do, the crash shows, what I go do. My military exam. Yeah, and then we retired and it went into a full-time and it went show.

It could sound for 18 years I guess and I had an antique dealer that came every year in part. Some of my coverage. I knew antique dealer and I saw why you buying my car because you're an antique dealer. It's I'm not dead yet. He said he looked at me.

Pointed his finger. He said, no, but you will be. So anyway, that how we got into it, it was from my personal standpoint. It was a challenge. It was I want to retired. I didn't want to work for anybody. I didn't want to work for the government. Didn't want a lot of military people retired to go to work for contractors and I really didn't want to do that.

I sure didn't want to get into politics and work for local government. But here was a way that I could be my own boss. I could create things. Yeah, I could work it hard as I wanted to, or little as I wanted to and two kids to put through college.

And the army retirement wasn't going to do that. It was going to help good base to keep things safe. Yeah. But it just developed and continued on what and you came here error. I should say you came to working new Cumberland in 73 and New Cumberland, army depot. Then when did you find the retire at from New Cumberland Army Depot in 79.

Okay, see you? I first came to see you would have been about 405 when you were tired before I'd have to figure that nice, you know, 79 minus 35. Yeah, about 42 or so. But when it came to Cumberland, it came as a tenant commander of a small unit that unit was abolished and I was then transferred, fortunately, to another unit in New Cumberland, not the devil.

But another tenant you organization called it. The United States, Army security is so come in and we were the logistics support to some 84 in countries. And that was really an interesting job. I forgot them between I had two tours in Vietnam, how come? Yeah. And they one was the best job I had in the whole 22 years.

I was with the Vietnamese army and there was the first American my sergeant and I are just the two of us who the first American advisors to the Vietnamese army and it was at the Saigon to steward Oregon. And Saigon port was closed down, just a terrible mess there, the supply line from unloading a ship to their depots was clogged up and my sergeant and I really got into he worked with enlisted people.

I worked with the officers and we got the supply line opened up and it took a lot of our time at work. Fortunately the we're not working the Vietnamese army apparently appreciated because they gave my start tonight and Medal of Honor which was the highest award they could give a foreign military version and we earned it.

Yeah, we heard it. But anyway, the second tour was, with the US Army in headquarters and I was in this G4 section, and in charge report operations. What were the dates for these tours? Oh the night in the 60s? Okay. In the 60s. That's a long time ago too.

Yeah, I was, I was captain at the first terror and I was advising a Vietnamese. Major. Who was the battalion commander? He didn't speak English, I didn't speak Vietnamese. I was a junior to a senior oriental officer which in the orient seniors do not take advice or at least indicate they don't take advice from juniors.

So we had a, we had a language problem. Fortunately, we had a Vietnamese officer, the spoke English. And I could talk through him to the commander but I never knew what he was saying. I never knew if what he was translating. Yep. And I thought the army made a terrible mistake of of not at least giving us some language education.

But at that time they would take whoever they could get and I was very born. So I was destined to go out to some combat area. But fortunately they two generals were arguing and one said he goes there. Another one says no we need him at the Saigon port and that guy won and he turned to his staff.

Instead, the first officer that comes in with port experience, goes to the Vietnamese port and I had poor experience at Cape Canaveral so they don't know what happened at that point guy. Yeah, there are two of us on on board. They aircraft both major airborne. I don't what happened to him.

Hmm. So anyway, that was it was an interesting and there was this opportunity in which I was isolated on the port. I my I worked for an Air Force kernel here because McVie command, but they they gave it to me and later bother me and I didn't have to report.

And if paperwork had to do just a sergeant line had manual work to do and working with the Vietnamese language and all that kind of stuff. And it what a challenge that was and we felt good. You happen to remember the the sergeant's name, after all these years, hey, Ryan master said, Ryman, he was Korean vet and he was one of the old-time.

Sergeants that what you needed? He got what needed to be done. He did know. Excuses. Later on in Germany. I had a problem in charge of a bunch of temples and different commander, had a two big truck, two and a half done truck. It was downloaded, it was down because needs an engine and so I he, he wanted a new truck.

I should get quite a few fixed what you got. No, we're trying. Well, let me talk to well, a sergeant there. Yeah, I got the requisition in so I checked a little. Yeah, I got directed in. He had here, very red covered, you see? He had done what he was supposed to do.

He committed the dark position. So I called Frankfurt Germany and to place where the engine was and today. Why doesn't this depot have the engine? What we're what recognition? They don't have any any information on it. All the guy had to do is get in the start, getting his truck driving have somebody driving down there.

Pick up the engine and bring it back. They didn't know you need a new truck, but the difference being my surgery was to do it. This guy in in Germany was hiding behind the representation, so what a job. It was both for both of us. So anyway, what's so good for my wife?

She was know. She wasn't in a small town and she would get called about an early been in Vietnam, and killing babies and children, and women, that's not good. Wasn't. Yeah. Don't anyway what's so you mentioned that you're your last job in New Cumberland was also dealing with foreign.

Yeah, and that was also not quite to level of the your first torn Vietnam but was also pretty interesting. Well, yeah, interesting who had well one I had to go to Saudi Arabia and there was a problem. Thought, Arabia of the Saudi Arabia, National Guard was out in the desert and doing camped out there and doing exercises.

And anyway, they were eating American sea rations, and one of them got into some pork and pork was not something that the Muslims people wanted, so we contaminated. So I had to go to Saudi to and then I was met there and driven out into the desert where this was weak began got new sea rest.

They were guaranteed not they have an import so that we don't have to stay in another interesting. A new American ambassador to Portugal was presenting his credentials to the president of Portugal, whatever was called. And this is a thing that happens in the state department along the country guys.

He's got a list of things that he wants to do and the new ambassador as things and they try to work it out. And that drug position came back through the state, department to the Department of Army and Air Force. And some of the department of airport, army down to our organization, which was really headquartered in DC.

We were the operating policy, but we had had very short period of time to get the army stuff to Saudi Arabia through the Air Force or Portugal. Portugal. Thank you to Portugal. And I, I will do dinner kernel at the time. So I got a hold of the Lieutenant Colonel Air Force guy that was loading.

The gonna load the responsible for receiving the trucks and I circumvented the regulations that was supposed to be done. I followed up and went, I got the stuff there and beat the army, beat the Air Force, and I was our stuff was the first one there to gold board.

The C5 though. Anyway, challenges that we were us just talking sort of before we started recording about. I think you sit in you you got into hot air balloons. At some point, was that connected with your army, ranger experience or in a way? Yeah, because I used to parachute and in parachuting, there's two moments of terror separated by a minute of bliss.

When you jump out of there, aircraft, I hope this thing worked. Yeah, then when you land, I hope I do it, right. Don't bust anything up. This is, I think one of them for me, might be actually pulling the parachute. Well, no, in in military jumping, it's all static line.

Okay? I did do one free civilian jump. But so you jump out and everything's everything, right? But they, we got home one family, we were home and there's hot air ballooning thing. And I said now I'm gonna I want to rent two of those. My mother was visiting us from Indiana and so I got two balloons and we by that time we had two kids and so we kind of separated up and someone went back and other than a little bit and my gosh.

Oh mighty. What an experience that was, instead of the moment of terror jumping out you just left off. And instead of a moment of blessed, you know, you're coming down. You got an hour, just floating with the clouds, and then, when you land, well, that could be difficult because it wasn't.

And I thought this is wonderful. So I said to myself, no, answer pile. How does that guy get into this? And he told me what needed to be done and I did it and what a what an experience that is and I must and I'm kind of happy to say I've left a lot of people with a lot of happy memories.

Now there they'll see me on the streets someplace or here. My names are here that guy with the bullet, you're the balloon, man. Yeah, well you took me up and yeah, Jackie and their kids some of their kids were up. So there's something left behind there that I've left.

It's a lot of people with pleasant memories. Of course, they'll all be passed on with time. And the only thing to be left with these. Yeah, I know so where I'm from up in New England. I can't remember if it's Vermont or New Hampshire, but they would always have a very large hot air balloon festival.

Did you ever take part in any of those? Not necessarily the one up in New England? But, you know, I grabbed them. I was what's called the balloon Meister, for their Hershey balloon festival. Okay. And we had, we draw 250,000 people the weekend. And of course we had the weighed 50 balloons and eventrist Albuquerque, of course, is known as Mecca of Bloody.

But we were voted the Hershey. Balloon festival was voted the best. Balloon festival in the United States for two years in a row. So I beat out the Albuquerque. That had a thousand balloons. I only had we I only would do 50 and people, people were wanted to be wanted to participate in that pilot, I mean, yeah.

But I had to be careful that that the pilots are with, I chose safety. Hmm. Now.

I'm trying to think of how to phrase the question, but essentially obviously you're an artist. Was there an art to picking the sort of design of your balloon or oh the blued. Yeah, as a matter of fact, my wife designed it. The balloons, the function and is basically the same.

I mean, how you what kind of colors you put into the envelope? You can do, you can list, you can identify that to do. You don't want to do a special shape or, you know, like the peanut man. And now you're getting in a big stuff and or the energizer bunny that that's a different world.

But no we could put the colors in and the more if you put deep on a detail into thing that starts at the cost. If but the balloon is made up of a lot of panels of of nylon that come to different colors and you just manage it the way you want.

That's something that you you manufacture, or were you involved a lot in natural process? They're only a couple of them. Well, only three manufacturers at the time US won in England and they moved here. So I guess four. No. You, he you go to the factory and you sit down with the one of the pilot salesperson and you say this, they show you some.

These are standard ones, which one do you want? What kind of color you want? And then you, you give me your money and you walk away. And at some time, they give you a FAA, qualified approved aircraft. And from that point on your you, you are an FAA balloon pilot, lighter than air balloon pilot or fixed wing or helicopter.

But for balloons, you lighter than air. And you have to conform to all the FA requirements, have the bone has to be inspected every year. And the you have, if you have any damage, it has to be repaired by an authorized repair person, very, very regulated. Very, very regulated.

I can imagine anything with the when when were you involved with the Hershey air balloon festival 1985, low 80s. Okay. The they, when they decided to build the giant stadium that took the launch field and that was kind of the end of it. Were you, would you still piloting in your balloon at that point?

Oh yeah, yeah, I had a private business and one man business and there. Again, it was a challenge of management skill full on the balloon and nine foreign countries. I have four thousand hours a pilot flying. So, so he had a management problem, he had a safety problem in, he had all kinds of things to, to get a, you had to decide he stay, whether you're going to fly or not and you had to tell your passengers.

Hey, we can't fly today and they get home all metal world feel nicely. But if the conditions weren't right? Yeah, 3,000 feet. Boy you didn't fly but it was once you were up and you just flowing floating with the cloud. What a feeling that is you had four thousand hours of it.

Yeah, well, yeah, it's called PIC pilot and command, yeah, there's for every hour a flight. There's a lot of hours and in front of it. So you mentioned that when when you finally retired from flying your hot air balloon, you took up a sport called disc golf yes. Yeah, at that time I was 60 years old little over 60 and that balloon got pretty heavy about that time and and it wasn't as much fun flying pastures.

You were like a bus driver, okay. And you don't talk to the bus driver when he's driving and the part of the fun was given people the experience, but taking the balloon to bring it down, treetop level, and picked the leaves. All the top of the tree here down over corn and get the tassel off the corn and then go back up.

So they got to be that you just bust driver in here. Wasn't that much fun anymore and age and gotten to me. So I quit and I took up the carving. I was still carving along the way, but not much and that's I'm looking for something. I want to be outdoors.

I want to be self-contained, I want a challenge what's going to do? And I saw somebody playing this silly thing of throwing a disc and putting into some sort of basket or something. This I saw that at I was on the in Florida, a key West at the navy base and on that navy base they had the disco of course.

And so I went up to these guys yesterday. What are you doing? Well this is discover what's disco? Well you throw these discs it's like golfing. You have a tea and you throw it a basket instead of a hole and all there was good, symbolic sensory and they military, their had some discs.

And so I went in and got some disc and I went out and I started throwing but my disk kept it in the palm trees, it's my distance. Go over. Where here? We're supposed to go. So they told me about the national organization PDJ and so when they got home, I started asking around.

I found a couple people that became my mentor that and this would be in Camp Hill New Cumberland. No well, Dover was one, can or Dover? And the built was in Lancaster and they kind of took me aside and said, well this is what you do. Here's what the disc are and he can limp kill was really my mentor because his more to it than just a disc.

What weight is what kind of discount does? He think there are different sizes to you, right? No, they're all eight eight inches in diameter, okay? But they're different weights a disc. Golf disc is opposed to frisbee disc golf disc is made like a wing of an aircraft in that if it's fun with enough speed, it has a vacuum, creates a vacuum on the top.

That's what lifts? The airplane up? Is that vacuum your name? Buddy? Down there? Hold it up. Yeah, so the faster you go in the air can flows over this wing and it lifts you up and the same thing with the disk. The, if you look at it they're slightly curved but the dispatch manufacturers can make them a little differently that if you throw it properly.

If spend to the right, you'll turn to the right or turn to the left or it'll go straight and you have different weight for wind resistance. And for a, the heavier than the disc, the less friction well, less during the ferric, it'll get, but it's heavier. You got to throw it more.

If it's the light disc, the wind will pick it up and then blow it, of course. So there's the 80, some different disk not, not talking about color, color is nothing to do it, except I'm color blind. So that had difference, the green gift laying in the in the leaves.

I couldn't find them. Yeah. But anyway, so there was a challenge, my goodness, thanks. All this is involved. And so the another challenge and I went out, I was only playing there and petrol state park. And the only people I could play with was Ken and he was a little younger than I but not much in the young guys, didn't we just did communicate.

So I called the PDJ one time and said, hey, where can I play with my peers? Well, find out in the world championship walk on, you know, it's gonna be in, okay? If Eaton Pennsylvania, near Easton Allentown think Allentown. It's going to be there next year. You should be in there because there's an age group that you could play with.

So you be playing with your ears. I said, this is still a good world champion. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Was gonna cost you so much and yet. Yeah. So I did and I went over and played with those solos, never kind of and ten of them. So, and I practiced really hard.

I got some baskets, put them up in my yard and went out to pinch. Oh, and I I really trained for it and the more I trained. The more I've understood it. The herald dynamics of it and so on. So, I played with these guys and I ended up, it was three winning positions.

First, second, third. Now, I was fourth and I thought, you know, I can beat these guys challenge. I can beat these guys, so I worked a little harder. And then next time we played, I was third. And then the next time I played, I was second. And I've number one, and I could have won it two years in a row.

But I got two cocky. And I understood the difference between recreational play and competition blame. It's the mind mind. Control mind over matter, and you don't pay attention to what's happening around your concentrate. Each shot is that's it. What I do? Wrong, forget about the score is move on to the next one.

I didn't do that. And as a result, I lost chat one championship, But anyway, one and then unfortunately, I had a stroke and I I lost my skill, so I had to give it up. So, it went back to carbon, but I wasn't carving friendly most carving for myself.

I'm not an artist. I'm a craftsman. I the only way that I can be here and others is if you're creating the design and I'm frequently modified design, or when I carved tree rooks, Now, there you look at the tree root and you say, what do I see in there and you carve a face out of that?

So I I gave up the disc golf and now I'm just sort of floating, you know. Well, I know we were talking earlier and you mentioned that and I can imagine, this is the case that disc golf is good for seniors because it won, it gets you outside an active, but it also really engages your mind.

And I can imagine that if you have 80 different disc weights or designs, and that you have to decide what is the best disk for this particular shot, in terms of one, what is my ability? What can I throw? Do I needed to go right left, go straight, so I can imagine it.

Yeah, there's a lot of strategy behind just golfing, you know. It probably less. So, and the younger players carry a bag full at least 15 different disks. Yeah. And they look into situation and they can pull out the disc that they they want for that situation. Now, the only trouble is did they throw it right?

Yeah. So, but with with me, I'm down to to well, three discs, one disc for one. I can't use a heavy disk for throwing for the drive shot, when you're on the tee because I can't throw it far enough. I don't have enough strength to throw it for. So I need a light disc that creates the problem of the wind, but nevertheless, that's what I can do and then there's a putter, there's a drive disk, there's a approach disk and there's a putter if there were different weights and different choices, of course.

And I ended up I I carried two drive this because if I lost one and had the other one and approached this and you you don't lose those very often and the parties. I had one but it lightened a load. Yeah. And you don't have golf carts on a disc.

Golf course you have woods and trees and neural paths to go. Yeah. And you have to go through trees and maybe five feet apart and you're 100 feet away. So, anyway, it, what a challenge? Yeah. And for the seniors. It one what this do? I use and getting it.

But then looking at the shot, what do I need to do the shot? I can't make it from here and make a whole one. That is going to happen. It's too far so order. I want my first disk to land to be in a position to throw the second through because it's trees in the way, there's a creek, there's water something.

So you you have to think I had, you have to think not anything bought by the. You have to think what I'm throwing, how I'm doing, and you get muscle memory after a while but nevertheless you can mess it up and cash. What I do wrong. So it comes to there and in the meantime you got your peers along and you talk about want to talk about not when somebody's throwing you talk.

So that's that was really the again another challenge. And another thing of not being dependent, not having a boss, not having to fake or do anything. You just you? No. So you mentioned one of the things I wanted to ask is I clearly you became extremely well known for your the wood carvings.

Did you end up when you're going to these trade shows and or did your wife, um, bring along some of the the Springley cookies that you or is that, or is it just the carving that, you know, that she got involved? And because we had these, she started making cookies and the kids really are children, really like them and she was a homemade graduate from the school.

Yeah. And so she took the German recipe and the converted it to what I what ingredients substituted here. Yeah. Is that what? I don't know if this these her recipes here, bill the Scottish shortbread and the right this speculus. Thank you. Last night to make you a lot of the spring remote with the antagon little bit.

This perhaps would be more of a speculative in the you packed the dough into it. Okay. But I think that would be more experientially really in the shortbread molds, were we're like big something about like that and about that deep. You packed the dough into it, knock it out.

And anyway, fishy is this something that I can share with people that these two recipes or you surely can't. Okay here it. No. Make sure to go copy right on it. They so anyway she was doing that and then we got to thinking well somebody called her mine on it that some local stores would be interested in it.

So she started off and she sold wholesale to some local stores and then when we were on doing she we had craft shows she did by herself sometime. But then after I retired of course, I with her from Ohio, to Carolina and all of her Pennsylvania. And anyway, yeah, she started having some of the cookies with her and the word sort of spread and she ended up and getting requests.

We didn't have a web page at that time after web page. And so we didn't have that. So really word of mouth? Plus she was, she was being picked up in newspaper articles and at one point name and markers will buy from us and they were distributing across the nation, her cookies.

We we would make the cookies, she would make the cookies. We put them over here in Carlisle in cold storage and freeze them and then naming Marcus would send a big box truck to the house and take them to the distribution point, that's created more. More people wanting to know.

And also the fact that we, we were invited by the big person in charge to decorate the Pennsylvania, national Christmas tree on the national mall in DC for three years. Well, name and markets had had name and markets and curl. My wife both split the first year, but then next two years, it was just her cookies.

Now, the cookies weren't there. We she made plastic reproduction, and they were put into a globe, and that's what hung from the cursement tree. So the birds and stuff wouldn't get to it. But for three years, we decorated, that, and we were written up in a book. As the only one in the United States, carving Springley cookies.

And the old-fashioned way, which means I was using a gouge not a tool and not a machine or foreign tool, something of that nature had to be sharp enough to make those German German people, happy that ones that you study under. Well, yeah, briefly. Well, they know that they were looking for far behind.

Okay? They didn't know. However, no that not quite true. The in Switzerland, the Swiss national museum invited me to participate me. And they had a summer exhibit. Going for the summer of European crash. That is moved to, the United States, would jewelry cloth the whole thing. It had to be a jerk had to be a European craft.

Mm-hmm. And I was selected to represent wood, so I sent a bunch of my samples over there, and it was an example, it was on display for a month or two months, whatever the display was and it's representing the Europe European bit, but her her cookie thing. Just she, she was picked up.

She can't think of, can't think of the girl named French American woman, you know, I can't think of it. Anyway, nationally known and huge picked up their and she was, she was in, oh, gourmet? Yeah. It's Julia. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. It's almost it. Yeah. So that was it.

But people are gonna be washing this and yelling. Yeah. They so that came up but she was picked up and gore me crazy island books and had articles on on her on the cookies and the recipe and they have pictures very. I brought some of that to show you later if you're interested.

Sorry. And well can it for this? Yeah. Yeah.

We've written up and parade magazine. It went down for a family that works together. This was a cartoon that was that was made. Anyway, that, that was in the Sunday parade magazine. Okay. And she's yeah, got it. But, but okay.

No, no. I know area here.

There you were pictures of it. Could be hard for your camera to pick that up, but this is her making the cookie friendly cookies. And how she used the mold? Okay. And then here's one of the more delicate ones. Here's rolling pins, rolling out the dough. And there she is.

And Christmas time. Did you mind if I kill this? Yeah, I can show to the camera.

She then added a loaf to it, for painting the cookies, and that picture that you had there was painting painting cookies. And one of the things that we found at the time because of the cookies, the customers that were actually put down so festival of whatever we were, they would say.

Yeah. I remember strangely cookies. My grandmother used to make those. Yeah. Who do you get them today? Well, you don't, because they're too work intensive. Well, I was when I was preparing for this, I noticed that in some cases you had to let the dose sit for like two weeks.

No. And I mean summer night. Yeah, a lot of places. I think the the one recipe I saw was just yeah, 12 hours or 24 hours. So, is that sort of hardness to crush? Yeah, and they're, they're very hard cookie. They were, they were a dunking cookie for coffee, or you hanging on a Christmas tree but you or after you made them that you let them sit so that they got a little bit softer or something, maybe, no, no, they don't get softer now, okay, that's why they're dunking cookies.

They the duck among and they're they were an anus cookie but you could use other. I forgotten what curl used as a substitute for that. It says on the recipe I'm sure not make cinnamon silvered almonds. Listen, that was this was a called curls heirloom cooking. Okay. Yeah, this this has NS and lemon flavoring lemon.

Okay. But because people were saying, yes, I remember grandmother used to have them and that then developed interest and she was Christmas time because she was making a lot and telling you but she we did go into a big business with that. It was, yeah, it was just small and because they couldn't get them anyplace else at the time.

So that that did a couple of things. The kids were gone. They were in college and graduated north, so that was sort of a joint effort between her and I and it it has been that we we were partners there. Yeah. I just want to make sure the camera got the parade family that works together.

This this picture shows I had 450s of the 450 garages, there were a hundred that I use but of 100 they were probably 60 that are used but I went to the German factory when was station in Germany and I I made a big selection because gouges come in different shapes, different forms and do different things when you're using your hand within use them, right?

And I could get them directly from the factory. In fact, I was there and so I'll make make some of them. And I had the opportunity and I was there and I became part of my military household good. So I could get back home. And so I had, I had the choice of doing reaching it and this one, or that one.

Huh? And so when you're when you're carving them and you have the gouges, is it just sort of like hands or you know? Yeah, I don't know.

And I don't know, let me take it. Don't do it here. It's not like this. However, on the bigger carvings I have, I have some, that were pretty big on carving in relief, not intact. Yeah. You you pounded it and get rid of the, the badwood. But for these in in college, I learned time and motion from energy engineering studies time and motion, the gougers were up here.

But so I would make when, when we're doing these, I'd make form at a time and we had a printing head of printing process started off. We had hand copying and that, that didn't work. But then we had a printing process and we could put four these on one block of wood.

So that then I would reach up here and get this gouge for the beginning thing. And what? One, two, three. Four return pick up another. Gout each one of these are timed when in time and motion, how you determine efficiency is. You look at a process, then, you measure reach grasp, hold return work.

And if you simplify that you shut, you cut down your time. Time is money. Yeah. So we'd have four release and I do each one and then put the gouge back and get another gauge that way. I could I could produce I'd work from 9:00 9:00 in the morning, loading at night six six days a week or so because we had good demand.

It's time went on though. The the antique moles were someone was simple like this, but others were very intricate. The Carver had to take a lot of time. With, in that case, you don't get the get money of what they did to. The baker was not always the carver he go to Fritz.

So who's the carver? He carved something really intricate during the summertime and then the banker, how much he could take that mode and he could make a thousand cookies. Yeah. And he he was no one for the intricacies of his cookies when they came from the carbon. But in my case, there, wasn't anybody going to make a thousand copies?

I had to make something that could be made quickly and usable or could be hung up like, here in the back. All the carvings are stamped with either staffed with my name or the first ones were written, I physically signed, but I had to do something that could be made quickly with functional and couldn't compete with them.

Well, time went on somebody else. Got this bright idea that they could make copies of the antique carvings into a plastic. It's a resin material like plastic sort and they could make a thousand copies and they could sell them cheap. So I I couldn't compete with that because here's a more intricately functional piece.

Antique piece but I couldn't compete with the intricacies of it but mine were hand carved. There's were molded. Yeah, anyway, so I had had where to quit, just quit that. That's when I got into the ballooning because we were just running run out. So so be it. Life goes on.

There was a picture in, in here. Some, there's one I did of at the brewery. This is German for beers. Yeah. Anyway, there's a lot of stuff. I did. Right. In late too. That's a Picasso. No, that was back in the women's live thing. But yeah that was that was a kid that my family that dad mom and the two kids.

Okay. That you know what? Marketer is marketing. Those beef pieces of wood. Each piece is a different piece of wood. Okay. That's all flat, smooth. Yeah. And you, you start off with a base and then you have to cut a silhouette some way then lay it on the and then cut a hole in the wood there, and this like a jigsaw puzzle, this fits into that hole.

Well, it's cool. It's not easy. I did, here's the precaution now. Red armchair that's all different pieces of wood. Yeah. But anyway, I thought there was I thought they were some I'm taking up a too much of your time. Now you're not. You're, I'm taking up too much of your time.

No better. I've got Well. So so All right. I'm not finding it With the with the end of the disc, golf you mentioned you had your stroke and then you've returned to the carving was that more. So less is a business and more just as a that was more just something to do.

Yeah. I I like working with wood and here's your colonial surgery. I think. That is that's the inline. No, no relief carving. Okay. Yeah. Relief carving. But no, it's When you reach age and your no longer employed or you're no longer need income work to make income to live.

If you just sit around and do nothing, you die. And as I've indicated before, I like challenges, yes, so it's very clear. Well, so now the disc golf is gone. I'm aged aging, I can't do what I used to be able to do but I still want to be outdoors Joe.

I still want to be challenged so I returned to the wood garment and let all those gouges and had shop and I just started picking thinking of what what kind of a car we're going to do. And the meantime are big, a big busy with the yard working. That's the other things that need to be done.

Here's relief. Relief carving and intactly oak. Carving showing the the difference going to differences and those this is a magical mango board and it with a long piece of wood, well it's stupid. It's two people with, there's a handle and there's a long piece of it to Norwegian system.

When a fellow was dating a girl. He would, he could show her. He'd love how much he loved her. The girl, of course. Because well, he loves me a lot by the intricacies of carving. A mango board. What does the mango board do? Well, that handle a little bit and along with got that goes a dowel and that's for ironing.

Linens ironing linen. Yep. So that could go into hope. Just, I guess we have wonder. Who's got the time here?

There, that that's my impression of Vietnam. That probably the only art piece that we could say other than what I did with tree wood and there's some of those but that was my first. It's gonna share this here. So, all the various carvings that you we had. No, I was gonna say when you sort of retired, you mentioned earlier that you were craftspin and that you took a lot of the antique designs and you you all through them a little bit, but you didn't consider yourself an artist, right?

Did that change sort of after sort of your retirement? And you were just carving for because you enjoyed carving or working with wood you go and say I guess you'd say I became a little more of an artist, okay? In that I was coming up with some different ideas.

What could that mean? Just looking at? Some of the things you showed me in this book? I mean, you certainly seem to be branching out and trying a bunch of different styles and attempting the things other than what you would have been known for one. Well yeah, they they work for sale.

Yeah. So,

Towards to you, please.

Don't, for example, there, a tree roots. Now, I wouldn't call that artistry, but to take a tree root that had some not an odd growth to it. Yeah, and say, okay, I see a face there. Well, I think we mentioned when we spoke last week and a gentleman Carver locally by the name of William Shemo, yes, yes, who was known for folk art and I think come around the county is a long tradition of folk artists from Aaron, Mounds and shimmel and some more recent couple of the tool that were locally.

Yeah. Well I mean that's me I mean, whether it is or not I mean that that looks like a folk art type of. Yes, it was a yeah real primitive and you look at someone stuff and having some knowledge of what tools were available. He he will a character to begin with.

Yes, but he did what is called folk art because he didn't have the equipment and they used milk a paint for coloring and what he did was was pretty interesting. Of course, he had to do it to live, but what what I'm doing is kind of what he did but in the modern world, yeah, those are called gnomes and they're about the at all and there's

Here's and there's another one that's that's the Scottish minor gnome. And the story behind him. It came from the tree that I had in the yard and in the old days that Scottish people were the miners during the Midwest and they'd go down in the minds and, of course, they're imaginary.

But the mind is, they would have their lunchbox, lunch, buckets down there, and some of them, there's lunch bucket was moved or they'd leave their tools there. When they went home at night and gnomes would come out and move the tooth now, they were good domes and bad dogs.

The good nose gnomes was the ones that oh the leak in danger. Get out of here. The bad ones take tools away. They couldn't find them the stevius. No, for the then that guy, which is the one. So earlier there, I had to give him a wife else murder.

That's Oscar and Myrtle Oscar with my father. And Myrtle was my aunt. Now, those works were from tree trunks and a fellow from Dover did with chainsaw. Would I showed him what I wanted and he'd ruffled out, then I'd take a year to. Maybe he did a good job with roughing out, but then I take a year finalizing, the faith, the eyes and and, and all that.

Now, that's fun. Well, and that to me, I mean, that that's artistry because I mean that's that's you coming up with the design and seeing it there. Well, no, I saw a picture of. And so now I've create the pictures, so it wasn't original, okay? But it was my craft that that turned it into something like that and it was my it was my fun.

Yeah. It was my thing to do. It was something that I had some sort of talent for and I wasn't going to go work. Work for somebody and wanted to be my own boss so that's after it goes. There's all, there's all kinds of stuff in here. That that, that, that show stuff, but or here, no, that's buttery.

And another thing that I did, these plates and needs a bath basket only worked in password or Linden as they're on. And I made these plates now, they weren't functional, but one lady bought them because she was going to use them for pies. You know, decorate a pie with the purpose of.

It really was just pure decoration and they were very popular. Hmm. But at all over. So if you've hung up all your gouges, then no, hold half of them to a fellow out in Ohio sub place. Those couches are very expensive. Now a gauche paid $10 forwards 24 to 30 dollars pay ten dollars in Germany and way back when.

Yeah. So they're very expensive. But anyway, as I said I had 450 and I just didn't need have and what's going to happen to them? When I passed away with my kids are not interested in no follow on. So they ended up in the auction house dollar pieces of something.

So I wanted to make sure they he got to somebody that could use them and they're good, colleges couches come from different manufacturers and the metal is extremely important. If in metal terminology, the Rockwell hardness is the amount of hardness at the metal is and if the metal is too hard, you have hard time sharpening it.

If too soft, it goes, go dull and a hurry. So you need a good gouge, and a lot of the cheap ones, of course, are not good cheap and these. Oh, my gods were good. When I was in Vietnam with the Vietnamese one of the officers had a had a friend, don't think of the family had a friend, who was a good carver and it passed away and they gave me his couches.

And wow, what antiques I mean they they were handmade gouges well and I'm sure how long a show I don't have for he got he's got he didn't go to the local hardware store by carpenter, you know?

So I don't know how he did it. I suspect he used just used a knife and but I don't know or yeah, or whatever was lying around on the farm that he was currently staying at, you know, he had he had to have his own piece of equipment, but he had to be, I can't imagine at that time of year.

It time that he had anything more than what we would call a pocket knife. And he could have perhaps gotten a razor from a barber and somehow manipulated that into a carving tool but I doubt that I did that. Yeah. But he he created something and it was unusual and different and he didn't do a lot of them.

So therefore, the scarf and expensive Mike Carby's are showing up now on eBay at quite an increase in price. Also, hear that antique dealer? Yeah, maybe maybe a champion. You have to, even have to wait that long man. I guess they know. We we go on eBay. I've never sold anything on the economy, baby.

We go and look. And we said, oh my god, look at the price figure out on the head. Yeah, we're kind of surprised that some of the plates show up and some some are there's a lot out there. Well you mentioned that you had sort of developed, a national reputation.

Yeah, as sort of the Pennsylvania Amish carver, even though you're not Amish, no one in one publication. I'm I am the ambition from Pennsylvania. Yeah, we when we went to the different craft shows, we were local newspapers and we were picked up as some national mostly. My wife was with her cooking.

It was a cookies and that of course, but along it was used as a has a advertisement to visit the craft show. Told Well I have asked all the questions that I want to ask No with one exception and this is always, the one exception is there anything I should have asked or that you want to mention before we end?

No I can't. I can't really think of anything at the it. Pretty well, we've we've done this. I've made this just as some sort of a remembered. Sure, whether who's going to remember, I don't know, but at least the kids are adult children can short to their children. Yeah, that this is what grandpa.

Great. Great. Great grandpa. I don't know how far back down to go, but it some way of retaining for prosperity. The work I think probably I was, was should say am and unusual person when you take a look at the where I came from and then the education that I had and then after all of that, the military career, the carving career, the ballooning career, the disc golf career?

Kind of, I think unusual to go through that many different things self-motivated and I think that's probably what you needed to be to go through all those different things. Yeah. Why would that way? I was that way because I saw what other families were doing it one time, you know, it one time, I can't eat and the elks which an Elkhart was the place with all the business guys.

That's where the guys in the Cadillacs. And Buicks, and, and package, you don't know what a packer is. Probably I believe my grandfather owned a packer and now is sort of his proud enjoy. All right, well, they would pull up and we would carry their bags and I thought right then?

That's pretty good. Why, why isn't anybody in my family? Doing that. And I'm going to have, I had a goal that my family life and my economic status was going to be that different than what I had experienced. And I wasn't going to get a divorce and my kids were going to have the opportunity to do things.

And the children, the example. And that was I guess that was the challenge of my life and this were independent areas. So that's it. I think. All right, well done. Thank you so much for coming in today and we know I actually I do have another question. Okay, so I had never heard so I, as I mentioned earlier, I grew up in New England.

So I'm completely devoid of German traditions and everything else. I had never heard of the springly cookies but I am fascinated with them. I was doing a little bit of research and I can't wait to try some. So what mold here would you recommend for me to try some traditional Springly cookies?

Well, this would be a fairly simple one. Okay, this would be a little more difficult because you got so many different designs. This would be a little too big for what you want to do. There's probably some other ones that of this size so that, that size, which is about what, three by two.

And the design is pretty simple. When you roll the door out here, the flower the dough. So that it's actually the release from when you press this in to the dough, okay? So you don't want to go to stick in there with tear it apart when you put it up.

So putting the dough in. Now you wonder your associates can is for me with Spring Lake cookies. Okay. And she don't want to be with her. I think her mother used to make them or something. She ought to be a good source of information for you. All right? And you like licorice a little bit.

Yeah and see I I'll substitute the lemon afterwards if I don't like it. Well after you go through the intensity labor that's involved with it. One one. Try maybe enough. Yeah. But if you really like to cookies, then then are you married? I am married. Yeah, your wife Christmas time could make a lot of us for your cooking.

All right, so I what that is all I had. So thank you so much, Don for for coming in and talking with me about your childhood and and out car. And then, eventually moving here to Cumberland County, and the wood carving, and the disc golf, and the hot air balloons.

It it's quite the life. So if you did, I had the opportunity to retire in and Colorado where I could be skiing, you know, and some other guy had seniority and he got that job. And we just stayed here because we like the the area, and we like the Pennsylvania people and the location to DC and New York and and for traveling, we do a lot of international traveling and we have just been very happy in Pennsylvania.

So it oddly enough, it seems like skiing both started, your career and ended your career. In the sense of you got that job and France because some officer broke his leg skiing. Yeah. And you got the job hearing Carlisle, or new Cumberland because some officer likes can. Yeah, no I I was getting in college, okay, and I purdue at Purdue.

Well no, not getting at Purdue you. Go up to Wisconsin or someplace? No, I that skiing magnified itself by living in Europe and going to a lot of different skiing resorts. So our and excuse different places here in the States too. But that, no, it it, that was just sports, that's another challenge by the way, what and skiing is definitely something that's hard to do the older you get I have found.

So yeah, I I fell off of a letter shattered doing heel, fractured an ankle and I can't get in and out of his keyboard. Yeah. So I had to had to give that up, but I used to ski backwards. That was stupid. They did do it. Well, impressive thing to do.

Well in anyway it It was fun. Well again, thank you so much for for coming in today and talking with me. I really appreciate it. Good, thank you.