Ethan Johnson

Abstract

Ethan Johnson, born in Sierra Vista, Arizona in 1999, is a second-generation Bosnian-American who currently attends Dickinson College in Carlisle Pennsylvania. Ethan’s mother, Maida Poljakovic, is originally from Tuzla, Bosnia-Herzegovina. After briefly seeking refuge in Switzerland with her sister during the war, Maida returned to Tuzla and worked as an interpreter for NATO. She met her husband (Ethan’s father), a member of the U.S. military serving on the NATO mission to Tuzla, and she eventually immigrated to the U.S. in 1998 with him. Ethan describes his connections to his Bosnian heritage both through the stories shared by his mother and through his visits to Bosnia. He explains that Bosnia is “a place of continuity” for him. As a person who lived in several different places in Europe and the U.S. throughout his life, Bosnia is the one place he feels he can call home, and he has extended family living in Tuzla. Additionally, he connects to Bosnian culture via food prepared by his mother. Ethan has not had much interaction with the local Bosniak community in Carlisle; however, he feels that the Carlisle community promotes an inclusive environment for Bosniaks because of the increasing refugee population. Ethan’s Bosnian relatives are Bosniaks, but neither he nor his mother are practicing Muslims. Ethan is a political science major, and he has a passion for Bosnian and Balkan politics. He feels it is important to keep up with the news in that area.

Key Words: Tuzla, Sarajevo, NATO, Kalesija, palačinke, čevapčići, Army War College, Yugoslavia, Islamophobia

Time-Stamp Summary:

03:19, Ethan’s mom’s war experiences

05:07, Ethan’s mom and aunt seeking refuge in Switzerland

08:02, How Ethan’s parents met during the war.

12:20, Ethan’s visits to Tuzla, Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14:09, Ethan’s family’s faith versus his own, and his connections to the culture.

16:09, Perceptions of the Bosniak community in Carlisle.

17:29, Perceptions of Carlisle’s treatment of refugees.

19:42, Ethan’s interactions with a Serbian on his football team.

24:09, The importance of Bosnian and Balkan politics.

30:08, His younger brother who works in Bosnia in the summers.

34:54, Perceptions of Islamophobia in the U.S.

Transcript

Jake DeCarli JD (JD) 00:01 Alright, well good afternoon. Um, Ethan before we begin this interview, do I have your consent to record this interview both on audio and on video?

Ethan Johnson (EJ) 00:07

Yes.

JD 00:08

Thank you. Uh, we are here today on Sunday, April 3^rd. It is approximately 4 o’clock p.m. We are at Dickinson College in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, United States, uh all here for the Bosnians in Carlisle and Cumberland County Oral History Project. My name is Jacob DeCarli, and I am here with Ethan today. Uh, Ethan first of all, thank you so much for being willing to come and share your story with us. Um, after the interview we will have a release form for you that indicates what you would like done with the interview. So, for example, you can have the interview being viewed in the Carlisle, um, Cumberland County Historical Society, or you can, have it just being viewed, um, online on their public website, so there’s some options, so you, it’s really up to your agency.

EJ 00:55

Sure.

JD 00:57

So, Ethan, are you ready to begin?

EJ 00:58

Yep.

Jake DeCarl 00:59

Great. Okay, so could you please state your full name for us please?

EJ 01:01

Sure. Ethan Kenan Johnson.

JD 01:04 

And could you please spell your full name?

EJ 01:06

Uh, E-T-H-A-N, Kenan K-E-N-A-N, Johnson J-O-H-N-S-O-N.

JD 01:13

Great. And what year were you born in, Ethan?

EJ 01:14

Uh, 1999.

JD 01:16

And where were you born?

EJ 01:17 

Uh, Sierra Vista, Arizona.

JD 01:20

And did you grow up in Arizona, or some different places?

EJ 01:25

Um, several different places.

JD 01:27

And where did you grow up at?

EJ 01:28

Uh, so, my father was in the military, so I grew up, um, in Arizona, uh, Germany, Italy, Belgium, um, Texas, Georgia, uh, Virginia.

JD 01:48

And where does your family currently live at? (Interruption at 01:49)

EJ 01:51

Hm?

JD 01:53

Where does your family currently live at?

EJ 01:55

Uh, they are, um, in [Washington] D.C.

JD 01:56

Okay.

EJ 01:57

Yeah.

JD 01:58 

Nice. And so as you know, today we’re here to learn more about your experience, but first just to get to know you a little bit more, um, so you’re a student at Dickinson College?

EJ 02:06

Yes.

JD 02:07

Great. And what year are you?

EJ 02:08

I’m a senior.

JD 02:09

You’re a senior.

EJ 02:10

Yeah.

JD 02:10

And what do you study?

EJ 02:11

Uh, political science, and, uh, security studies.

JD 02:16

What made you choose those two fields?

EJ 02:18

Um, my father, uh, is in the military, like I said. And he’s in the intel community, so, um, I’ve just been exposed to, like, that type of politics and, um, intelligence field, so I just feel like that was a good, uh, subject to lean into.

JD 02:34

Yeah. And back to, you know, all the places that you grew up in throughout your life, how was that, for you?

EJ 02:40

Um, I think it shaped me a lot. Um, I’ve gone the, like I experienced a lot in a short period of time. Um, I’ve become more, like, worldly, um, as I, as I grew up and experienced different peoples and cultures, um, so I thought, um, I think that’s shaped me a lot, and it’s made me the person I am today.

JD 03:06

Thank you for sharing that.

EJ 03:06

Yeah.

JD 03:07

And so, Ethan as you mentioned to me earlier, uh, that your mom is actually from Bosnia, and, so today, in addition to hearing about your experience, you know, I’d love to know more of what you know about your mom’s story when she was in Bosnia and everything. 

EJ 03:19

Sure, so, my mom was born, um, in Tuzla, um, with her sister, um Selma, my mom is Maida, her maiden name’s, um, Poljakovic, um, they grew up, they were teenagers during the war, um, about 13 or 14, um, and they were also, um, refugees, um, in, uh, Switzerland briefly, for about a year, then they came back. Um, and, um, from my knowledge, um, they uh, um, had to, commute to school during the war, and, um, my mom always told me stories of um, times they had to hide behind dumpsters, cause they were being shot at, um, by the, by um th-the Serbians. Um, so, I always heard stories like that growing up and also through my relatives in Bosnia when I go, um, that, that war really, um uh, impacted them, and and shaped them, and um, they’re better, um, now, um, cause, I feel like, um, they’re stronger, and their relationships in Bosnia are stronger, everytime, um, I go to Bosnia, it’s like, it’s a very small community in each city, like in Tulza or Sarajevo, like they, um, they know, it’s like a small neighborhood even though it’s a city, they know everyone that’s there, um, cause the community’s so tight, and I think part of that, um, tightness is because they all went through that, um, horrific experience together, and they came out of it.

JD 04:54

Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.

EJ 04:56

Yep.

JD 04:57

And so, you know, you talked about your mom and sister seeking refuge in Switzerland. I’m wondering how long they remained in Bosnia, or when they immigrated from Bosnia?

EJ 05:07

Um, so, like I said, they grew up, um, in Bosnia, and they went to, they were going to high school during the war, and my, um, grandparents, their parents, um, they were worried about, uh, cause there was raping, and they were hearing stories, cause the worst of it was in, obviously, Sarajevo, and Tuzla was where the, um, NATO presence was, and so Tuzla was a little bit safer, um, than Sarajevo, and they were worried that the, um, Serbians were going to push into Tuzla, and, um, they didn’t want, they were hearing about rapings and shootings and, Tuzla also got shootings, and they were getting more, but it, it wasn't, um, as bad as Sarajevo, and, um, they were worried, and they wanted to send my, mom and her sister, um, to Switzerland, um, to keep them safe, and uh, they were there for about a year and, um, my mom and my sister, for whatever reason, uh, weren't liking it, then, my, their parents stayed in Bosnia. They were doctors, my grandparents were both doctors, so they were, um, on the frontlines of of things because of uh, of the, of the war and casualties and things like that. Um, so they stayed and my parents didn't like being--my mom and her sister--didn't like being away from my--from their--parents, so they only went away for about one year in Switzerland, and they came back, um, within the same, within the timeframe of the war, so as they came back, they were still, um, in that, uh, in that scenario.

JD 06:43

And so, did your mom ever talk about how, you know, she felt coming back to Bosnia during the war?

EJ 06:49

Um, not really, cause, um, it was such a small, um, part of their experience of the war. Um, they didn't have the experience of being a refugee didn't impact them um, a lot, and then coming back, it was just like coming back home, and so, that, integrating back into the war scene and they, um, and the neighborhoods safe for them, um, I don't think it was that impactful because it was just going back home, so it was more strange for them to be a refugee, and it was actually more comfortable for them to be back home with their family, even though, um, it's in the middle of the war, but at that point they were used to the war, and that, like I said, that commute to school and having to hide behind dumpsters and getting used to some of your friends not, um, coming back home cause, um, they were, um, shot, um, that was all, um, a regular experience for them, and, um as, as it was they got pretty used to it.

JD 07:52

And so, you thinking about your mom's story, and, and your family's story, how do, how does that make you feel, you know, as you learned these stories for the first time, or even think about it today.

EJ 08:02

So I had, I always got a good dose of these stories as I was growing up, and, um, as like a second grader, third grader, I didn't know what I was, um, I didn't know what I was, I didn't know what she was telling me, it just, it sounded interesting to me, um, there being like a big war where my mom was from, and her telling me these (making air quotation marks) war stories, um, and my dad's in the military, so it was interesting cause I never get war stories from, from him, um, he's just not comfortable with it, and it's also a different aspect of it, cause, um, my dad met my mom, uh, as part of the NATO mission in Tuzla, and my mom was an interpreter helping NATO, um, so I got actually more stories from her probably because she just wanted me to, um, learn where she's from, and that was a big part of, um, her history, um, so, growing up, uh, like I said, I didn't really know what I was, um, they just sounded like cool stories to me, and as I got to, um, experience Bosnia more, and, um, as I, I went to Bosnia several times when I lived in Europe like almost every other year, um, until I was ten, ten or eleven, um, and that's when I moved back to the States, but when I went there every year I saw, um, mortar shells and buildings and bullet holes, and, um, that always stuck with me, and I never really put the pieces together to why, the city was always in ruins, I was always just used to it, and then as I grew older and I learned more about Bosnia and the story and the details of it, away from my mom's experience, and put the puzzles together, kind-of, um, and as I saw the city also repair itself and the holes that were there 15 years ago that I saw in my, uh, mom's apart--my mom's parent's apartment where she grew up, and they're covered and they're patched up, um, so it always fascinated me, um, the way, the city grew and I grew with it and my knowledge, um, of the war grew and, um, and her stories that she told me, it became more impactful for me, um, as I grew up, and the knowledge of those stories were more detailed now that I have more of context of what she was telling me.

JD 10:23

Thank you so much for sharing that.

EJ 10:24

Yep.

JD 10:26

Um, so as you were learning more, about these stories, were you also doing your own research of more events that happened in Bosnia? Were you, did you hear about it maybe in some classes, for example?

EJ 10:38

Um, yeah my, uh, knowledge of the situation in Bosnia really, um, took off in college, um, I took some, some classes like the Refugee class, um, and, um, we read books and first-hand accounts, and it was interesting taking a class like that cause, um, I got to compare my own experiences and my own knowledge and stories, um, with, uh, other, um, with the history and the context of it and other people's first-hand experiences, um, and reading about that, um, so that was, um, really cool for me, and that helped me, um, gain a lot more knowledge, um, about, uh, Bosnia and the refugee, um, problem in Bosnia during the war, um, and also the NATO part of things, and how NATO, um, got involved, um, and then also the war crime trials afterwards. Um, so those, all those nuances, um, I was ignorant to until, um, I--and I was, was always interested in Bosnia obviously, because I'm Bosnian and my mom grew up there, so I was always, I always had a fascination with learning more, um, I felt like I could connect better with my family that way in Bosnia, um, so, that was always an interest to me, and, like I said, my knowledge really took off, uh, when I came to college really gave me the opportunity to seek those classes out, and to, um, to research it more in-depthly.

JD 12:10

Thank you.

EJ 12:11

Yeah.

JD 12:11

And so after, you know, doing more research and taking those classes, how has your identity of being Bosnian, you know, really changed?

EJ 12:20

Um, I found that, uh, as I, um, grow older, I'm a lot more nationalistic with my Bosnian identity, um, I gravitate towards it more, I feel like that's a normal thing, um, for immigrants, or like, for first-generation immigrants, I'm not an immigrant, cause like I said, I was born in the United States, but, um, that's a big part of me now, and, like I go there, I've been there, um, several times, and I go there every five to six years now, so it's almost my home away from home, and it's also the one place that's stayed a continuity for me, um, cause I've moved around so many times, I've had so many, uh, friends, and I've had so many different houses I've grew up in, there's no where I can go, um, at least in the United States, where I could call somewhere home. Um, but, the places in Tuzla, um, my parents, um, farm in Kalesija, um, I have childhood memories there, because those places have stayed the same for twenty-three years, um, so it's always nice when I can go back there, and see things that I used to play with as a kid, and, also my parents grew up there, my mom grew up there, and I can see her childhood experience also, so it's, um, it's always nice when I can go back there and bond like that, with that, um, place of continuity, and that's only grown stronger since I've grown older, and it's really shaped my identity and my, and my Bosniak, um, sense of self.

JD 13:57

Thank you so much for sharing that, Ethan.

EJ 13:57

Yep.

JD 13:59

Um, so today, you know, living in the United States now, uh, how much do you participate in some of your Bosnian traditions? um.

EJ 14:09

Um, sure, so, um, my mom is, my mom's family they’re Bosniaks, technically, um, Bosnian Muslims, um, but my mom isn't a practicing Muslim, and I'm not a practicing Muslim, and, um, I grew up Christian, cause my dad was Christian, and my mom switched to the Christian faith, um, so as an upbringing I've had a very standard American, Christian upbringing, um, I didn't learn Bosnian, um, or Serbo-Croatian, um, I know, um, words, as I've picked up from um, going there and having to talk to my grandparents and my cousins, um, who, primarily speak Bosnian, but they also know English. So, it's always a very swift transition. Um, for me, the thing that sticks with me culturally, and the thing that sticks in my everyday life is, is food, um, the, uh, Bosnian food is very unique, um, and you can, um, there's, uh, palačinke and um, uh, čevapčići, um, those are very unique foods, that, uh, you know where they come from when you see them, and, um, Bosnia, uh, those are the two most popular dishes there, um, čevapčići and palačinke you can find, uh, in every corner, um, and so, I like to, uh, when I come to the United States, try to recreate those foods and find those foods in the community as best as I can, um, basically palačinke is just a crepe that's rolled up, um, so, um, it's very easy to make, and čevapčići is a little more complicated because you need the right meat for it, um, but, culturally that's how I stay connected when I'm not, um, in Bosnia with my Bosnian relatives.

JD 16:01

Mhm. And so now in Cumberland County, have you had any experiences with the local Bosnian or Bosniak populations?

EJ 16:09

I actually have not, um, I've wanted to, I've heard there's, um, Bosnian stores, um, around town, and I've always wanted to go and experience those. Um, my knowledge of the Bosnian community here, um, I didn't have much of it until I took, uh, the, Refugee class and, um, our professor, um told us about it, and, um, you know, I played football while in college, um, and I've had part time jobs, so it's always been hard for me to get that time, and to really reach out and connect to that Bosnian community, um, but it's always been, uh, a bucket list item for me, cause the Carlisle Bosnian community is pretty well-known, and pretty big and it's kind-of random too. I was talking to my relatives in Bosnia, I was like, "Here my little school, in the town, they have a big Bosnian community, in the middle of Pennsylvania." And they're like, "Oh wow, it is interesting." And so, it's not only interesting for them but interesting for me too, cause you never expect, um, Bosnians to be in Carlisle, so it's cool.

JD 17:13

Mhm. Thank you so much.

EJ 17:14

Mhm.

JD 17:14

And so thinking about Carlisle after living here for a couple years, in your opinion, how has the Carlisle community really treated, uh, immigrants, or, um, people who are Muslim?

EJ 17:26 

Um, I don't have much experience with that, uh, but, I feel Carlisle has a lot, um, going on, it has the college community, there's a, um, big army installation, um, the Carlisle Barracks, and the Army War College, um, and the Army War College brings in a lot of diversity also, cause they, um, have uh, officers from different countries come and their families, and also come and take classes here, so that diversifies the Dickinson campus, um, a lot, and I know, um, Carlisle brings in, um, a lot of, uh, refugees from the Middle East, um, I've heard, um, about, um, Afghan um, refugees coming here, um, so, and I've seen that in person, so in that aspect, I can't put my finger on how the Carlisle community, cause I'm not, um, greatly, um, sown into the Carlisle community, it's mostly through Dickinson through Carlisle, um, but, I have, uh, friends' parents who work with, um, Afghan refugees, and, um, I feel like, uh, Carlisle, um, makes a good home for them, and, um, from my knowledge and from what I see, um, through Dickinson and through Carlisle, um, I feel like they, um, and obviously, uh, this has, Bosnians came here, and for a reason, and the word spread and to make the community bigger, so Carlisle obviously offers, um, refugees, um, a nice, um, inclusive safe haven, um, while they're here, or if they're, like they get repatriated back into their home countries, um, just, um, has a good community, um, and they gravitate towards it. So, um, I think that's proven through, um, the population of the Bosnian, um, community, and how they've stayed, um, and also, also, new incoming refugees also come here, like the Afghans.

JD 19:30

And so thinking more, Ethan, about, you know, growing up in different places, have you had opportunities to befriend other, um, people of Bosnian heritage or people from Bosnia? What were those experiences like?

EJ 19:42 

Um, sure, uh, so as I've grown up, uh, my mom has been the one to really, um, create those, uh, relationships, um, with other, um, Yugoslavian, um, countries, cause my mom still sees, she's from that generation, cause Yugoslavia broke up in ’89, so she grew up part of her life in Yugoslavia and not just Bosnia. So, she very has, she still has a nationalistic, Yugoslavian aspect to her. When she talks about Bosnia, it's not just about Bosnia, it's about, uh, Yugoslavia, and she mentions that Yugoslavia had a great basketball team, and things like that back in the ‘80s and the ’90s. Um, and, uh, so, you would think that, um, her being Bosnian and then the whole war happening, and then you’d think that they wouldn't like Serbs, but it's not like that. Um, and from my experience, it's been the same. Um, we've had, we have Serbian on the uh football team, and, um, and I thought it was really interesting getting to, uh, know him, um, getting to share--he's younger so he obviously doesn't have that much knowledge of what happened. But it's also, I just found it very interesting having conversations with him and his input, him being Serbian, and just comparing that to what I know, and then my Bosnian relatives and their experiences and, like I said, um, as I've grown up my mom's always made friends with Yugoslavian, um, people like from Croatia and Slovenia, and, um, Serbia. So, um, that's, uh, really helped, um, my knowledge of things, and, um, how, uh, relationships are formed, and how, um, they've tended to overcome the, uh, the war, and just keep that nationalistic, Yugoslavian identity instead of, um, having any resentment, um, towards Serbia, and I think that meeting more Yugoslavians, especially from Serbia, um, really, uh, helps me, um, grasp that Yugoslavian identity, um, even more, and also helps me understand how people in Bosnia are able to adapt and overcome, um, what happened in the war also.

JD 22:14

With your teammate who's Serbian, if you don't mind me asking, what were some of those conversations that you had?

EJ 22:22

Um, I didn't go deeply into it cause, it's like, uh, American politics here for them, the Bosnian-Serbian politics is complicated, and everyone has a different point of view, um, and it can get, um, uh, like, serious sometimes, um, Bosnia has three presidents, and their form of government is very complicated, and, um, there's, uh, they represent the Croatians, the Serbians, and the Bosnians, or the Orthodox Christians, Catholics, and Muslims. Um, so, there's a lot of competing, um, identities, and, um, different ways that the government should run the country, and Serbia, uh, and the Republika Srpska, that, um, autonomous, um, area inside Bosnia, is also very influenced by Serbia. So, there's a lot of, the politics around it is complicated, just like American politics is complicated internationally, and it can, and there's lots of different, varying points and viewpoints. So, to avoid any, um, type of, uh, argument, I didn't go deeply into, um, the war with him, I just stuck to culturally, similarities between Serbia and Bosnia, and wanted to bond with him on that level, um, so that's, that's, uh, how I, uh, talked to, um, my friend, my Serbian friend.

JD 23:58

As a political science major with a security studies focus, how important is it for you to keep up with the politics going on right now going on in the Balkans and Bosnia?

EJ 24:09

Um, it's very important. Um, just, right before the Ukrainian thing started in Russia, or, where Russia attacked Ukraine [24 February 2022], um, the Serbians became very nationalistic, and there was a very serious worry, it made international news as well that the Serbians were going to attempt something in Bosnia again and do another um, type, uh, I don't even know what it would be like, but, uh, I asked my, um, while I was in Bosnia, um, over Spring Break, I asked my, uh, aunt in Sarajevo what she thought of this, and I didn't know how serious uh, this Serbian, uh, aggression was, re-aggression, um, some twenty years later, um, until I asked her experience with it, and she said that she translated her, um, cause she's also a doctor, and she translated her doctorate into German, being ready to flee to Germany, for... be a refugee for the second time, and that really surprised me cause, um, obviously those, they see Serbia becoming very nationalistic and talks of uh, attacking Bosnia again, and they take that very seriously, um, and I didn't know that at the time, and, so she translated her, uh, degrees into German, and they decided to put some plans on hold, um, to save up money in case they had to flee. Um, and, that was really striking to me, and that was only a couple weeks ago, um, and, um, so, and my knowledge of that, and me being able to talk to her about that was important, and I was able to do that because I keep up with international news and politics and things like that. So, it's an ever-evolving situation even twenty years later, um, in Bosnia with Serbia, and so keeping up with the politics there and the Balkan politics I think is very important because, um, it still has international, um, influence, and there's still things that have to be finished, and there's still things that have to be done. Um, obviously, the Dayton Peace Accords implemented that type of government there, and I don't think it’s a permanent solution, but it's become one, and I know from talking to Bosnians that they don't like the, um, the one's I've talked to, they don't like the set-up of the government with the three presidents, and the three representations, um, and, cause it's complicated and no one understands how the government works, and, um, they want a more simplified solution, but obviously that would cause, uh, Serbia to be reignited in their aggressions, so it's a complicated situation that still has to be, um, thought out and solved.

JD 27:06

When you went back to Bosnia a couple weeks ago, what were some of the, you know, perceptions you have given the recent rise in Serbian nationalism and also with, you know, the war in Ukraine currently, was there any sense of anxiety, of, around the people you were with, or anything that you observed?

EJ 27:28

Um, sure, the greater sense of anxiety, um, cause I'm closer to my family also, um, the most, um, I don't have many friends, um, outside of my own circle of family members in Bosnia, so to, I don't know what the average Bosnian, what their anxiety level is about things, but I know my family's anxiety level about things, and it seemed like they were, um, anxious and they, like my aunt was prepared to be a refugee again, um, so in that aspect, um, they, uh, they took the nationalistic tendency of Serbia to be, um, very serious, and were ready to move on it if need be, because they have PTSD from the previous war, so they're not even, um, messing around anymore with, uh, with Serbian nationalistic tendencies.

JD 28:27

To go back to something earlier you mentioned, uh, you talked about your dad being a part of NATO, and that's how he met your mom, I'm wondering if you could tell me more about, you know, how maybe how, how they met or...

EJ 28:40

Sure.

JD 28:40

...when they actually left Bosnia?

EJ 28:41

Sure, so, um, my mom was, um, in her early twenties, about twenty-years-old, and my dad in his early, um, in his late twenties, early thirties, and he was a, um, officer in the United States military, and his, one of his first assignments, um, was to go to Tuzla and, um, implement peace, uh, it was a peacekeeping mission by the U.S. Army through NATO, um, and, my mom, as one of her first jobs, became an interpreter to help translate, um, from Serbo-Croatian into English, and that's how, um, my parents met, um, during the war, and, um, and then they started dating, and they got married, um, and then they, um, my mom immigrated to United States with my, with my dad.

JD 29:33

Do you know what year they immigrated to the U.S.?

EJ 29:34

Uh, well, my mom immigrated, my dad was already a U.S., uh, citizen, um, so it had to be around when I was born, so, um, what, like, 19-, probably, 1998, something like that.

JD 29:50

Alright. And just to go back to your family, do you have any siblings?

EJ 29:53

I do have a younger brother who was born in Italy, so that's kind of random.

JD 30:00

And how do you two, kind-of, connect about your Bosnian identity, or do you have open conversations about, you know, your family's experiences?

EJ 30:08

Sure, so interestingly, um, he has, uh, spent more time in Bosnia over the last, um, four years than I have, my uh, my aunt, my uncle and my aunt in Bosnia own a horse ranch, um, for equestrian riders, and he's been, um, volunteer in Sarajevo, and he's been volunteering there, um, to help my aunt, so he goes to Bosnia almost every summer and spends a couple of months there. Um, so he's gotten to know the city of Sarajevo really well, and, um, also has spent a lot of time with, um, people who are outside of our family circle. Um, and, he, um, always talks to me about, um, the way that Bosnian kids are compared to American kids, and, um, how much of American culture affects Bosnian culture, and I always get a sense of that when I'm there for a week or two, um, but he's been there, um, for much longer stretches of time. So, um, I feel like, um, he's gotten a better grasp, um, of the everyday culture there and how, um, everything is affected by American politics, American news, um, and, uh, they pay very much, they pay close attention, um, to American politics they are very opinionated about our presidents, about how we do things, about the Ukrainian situation. I know my aunt desperately wants, uh, the United States to get involved, um, cause she feels like, um, that type of, uh, aggression, um, would only influence Serbia to be aggressive also, Um, so, in that aspect we talk about, um, poli- Bosnian politics, American politics, we just do a lot of comparing, since I spend more time in the United States, and, he spends a lot of time in Bosnia.

JD 32:01

Thank you for sharing that.

EJ 32:01

Yep.

JD 32:04

Um, thinking about your future, how do you think you'll carry really on your Bosnian identity and culture, um, maybe if you eventually have children, or your brother has children?

EJ 32:15

Sure. Um, I definitely, whether I have children of my, or, if I'm married or not, um, it's hard to get out there, um, especially as a, um, twenty, young twenty-year-old, with a new job and getting out of college, it costs a lot of money, um, to go out there, um, but, I'll, try, um, to find the funds and go out there as much as I can cause, like I said, it's that one place of continuity, um, that I've always enjoyed, and my, um, aunt and my uncles are always there and I have lots of cousins and my grandparents, um, so there's always that family aspect that will always bring me back there, that I'll always have close family there, so there's no situation, um, that I won't go back, um, it's just a matter of time, um, and when I could do it, um, and then the frequency probably wouldn't be very much, probably, as it is now five or six years, um, but, uh, I'd always invite, um, people to come with me, um, I feel like Bosnia isn't a big tourist destination, and, um, I was going there for Spring Break, and I would tell people I'm going Bosnia and they're like, "it's not really a Spring Break location, it's not Tampa, Florida." And I was like, uh, no, you really have to, uh…for me it's easy cause I have family there, so I'm visiting, visiting family, not going for Spring Break, but if you don't have a reason to go to Bosnia, it's out of the way from anything else, so I feel like, just exposing people, um, to the culture, and to the Balkans in general, um, is important, and um, anytime I get the opportunity to bring people with me to come and see family, and, um, see the cities, and get a taste of the culture and the history.

JD 34:05

Have you brought your friends from Dickinson or from your high school to Bosnia?

EJ 34:08

Um, I have not, I've only gone with family, since then.

JD 34:12

When you're with, uh, your friends, do you ever, um, do some things from your culture, or prepare food or anything, um, to introduce that to your friends, or?

EJ 34:22

Um, I haven't recently. I'm not a very good cook, so I'd have to get my mom to do the cooking, but I'm open to it, um, so, yeah.

JD 34:34

Back to what you were mentioning earlier, it's interesting how you were telling me about, um, how your mom's not a practicing Muslim and how you're not, and, you know, given the rise in Islamophobic attitudes in the United States in the last twenty years, you know, what's your perceptions on, American, general viewpoints towards the Muslim community here?

EJ 34:54

Um, it's interesting cause anytime, um, I tell people about my experience, and, um, uh, they don't... lots of, uh, people don't understand that there are, um, white Muslims that aren't Middle Eastern, um, that aren't African, um, they don't, most people don't know there's a country that's, uh, majority white there that are Muslims, which is interesting to me. Um, so, um, it's kind-of strange demographically, cause the United States you don't see a lot of Caucasian Muslims, you normally get, um, Middle Eastern, and those are the stereotypical, and that's where most of the Islamophobia arises from, um, because of terrorism and things like that, they've been stereotyped. Um, so, I don't know, um, if Bosniaks feels that same type of stereotypical negativity that comes with Islamophobia and American Islamophobia, cause I haven't discussed it with them, and it's interesting, um, conversation, and thing to be studied, um, because, um, they are white, and they're also Muslim, and, that's something that lots of Americans aren't educated or are used to, so.

JD 36:23

Thank you, Ethan.

EJ 36:24

Yep.

JD 36:24

Back to what you were saying about your family really being involved and interested in American politics and having opinions, you know, thinking about Americans and their knowledge of Bosnia and the Bosnian War, and the Balkans in general, you know, what are, what are some of your perceptions of how we're taught about, you know, Bosnia and what happened?

EJ 36:44

Um, so I think there's a definite divide in, um, if you're, if you get a formal education, um, I know that Bosnian history and the Bosnian war is definitely not taught in high schools, definitely not in my high school, um, which is interesting cause it's such a major part, um, of American history as one of the major conflicts that we got involved in, um, in the ’90s, um, so, most, uh, people I talk to who have, who don't study political science, they don't know, um, much about Bosnia or, even, I get some people that I talk to don't even know Bosnia is a country, um, so, that's always interesting to me, um, I don't know if I've ever gotten used to that, I'm always um, surprised, um, that, uh, they're not read-up on it, but I also don't blame them, because it's not taught in-depthly, um, almost anywhere, like definitely in any basic historical capacity, um, I don't know what the reason is for that, um, but it's always been a fascinating, um, thing for me, um, growing up and going to school, um, like I said, my first, I was able to really get a grasp of Bosnian history only cause I seeked it out in college. It's not something that's just, um, thrown at you, like, the Vietnam War or something like that. Um, so, I would really like to seek it out, um, and most people don't know to seek it out, so I can't really blame the ignorance around it, um, but there's definitely ignorance around the Bosnian conflict and the Bosnian war.

JD 38:27

Thank you.

EJ 38:27

Mhm.

JD 38:27 

Well, Ethan for today I don't have anymore questions for you, but please if you'd like to share anything else maybe we didn't talk about, or anything of your experience, um, being Bosnian or being here, or anything?

EJ 38:39

Um, I don't think so. I just, um, I appreciate you uh seeking me out, um, and to do this interview, and, um, I hope it, uh, helps your project out, my story, and my mom's story, um, brings a lot to, uh, to your class and to your project, so, um, thanks for, uh, thanks for taking the time out to get my side of things.

JD 39:02

Thank you so much to you, we really appreciate your story. Alright, thank you.

EJ 39:07

Thank you.